Biltong's Campaign Rules - Last Lap

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

[QB]Danke again, Biltong.

QB]

Dis 'n plesier out Maat

That reads: "It's a pleasure old friend"

[ January 08, 2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

I am drawing up a spreadsheet of the key vehicles that I tend to use in my Battle Group in support of the infantry company...

You can put me on the list so long Apache.

I'm curious to see what happens towards the end of the war.

BTW: While you're working through your sources looking at vehicles, won't you pass on any weather modifiers for 42.

I'm especialy keen to find out exactly when the Jan/Feb/March? cold came to an end;

When the slush from the thaw started and dried out;

When the new rain/mud season started;

When the first real cold of Oct?/Nov/Dec 42 started (say: minus 10 degrees) and

when the first blizzrds of Nov/Dec 42 started.

I know it's like asking the length of a piece of string, but any data is welcome.

Anybody else who might have something re the above - pls post or mail me.

Thanx

Biltong

[ January 08, 2003, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[SuperSulo]

Apache, I wouldn't mind getting that list (read: gimme! ) once it done.

And as to prove I know nothing about WWII: I thought GD were SS.

[ January 09, 2003, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: SuperSulo ]

[Biltong]

The Scalpel asks: "Can a player lose more than 50 favor in a battle? The rule limits the gain, but makes no mention of a loss limit."

I replied: I’m sure a player can lose more. The question is, should he? My gut feel is yes… but not too sure. Let’s decide once we get some player feedback. I’ll post on the board.

Anybody lost more than 50 Favor? Come on be honest

What do you guys think - How much should your CO be able to despise you?

[Apache]

Lose? Wadaya mean lose?

Super S: Just for info. GD are Heer and were originally formed in 1921 and were then known as the Wach Regiment Berlin. They went through a number of name changes in the following years and in January 1939, on the direct orders of Hitler (as Supreme Commander), they were renamed as Infantry Regiment Grossdeutschland (sometimes Gross Deutschland). A tell-tale sign is that they wear their regimental name band (such bands were worn by elite regiments only) on the right sleeve, distinct from the Waffen SS who wear it on the left.

Good site:

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/

[ January 09, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

Lose? Wadaya mean lose?

.... A tell-tale sign is that they wear their regimental name band (such bands were worn by elite regiments only) on the right sleeve, distinct from the Waffen SS who wear it on the left.

Grog in training

[Apache]

Now, in 1939 their names were: ..............

[ January 09, 2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

I’ve been wondering – How many players are using BCR? Maybe we (the BCR team) are only putting in all the work just for ourselves.

Post here – I’m curious to know.

BTW - Next update will be coming Monday.

Biltong

[Apache]

Biltong,

Not sure but this thread may only attract players who are playing already, and even some of those may not have kept pace after thread 2.

I wonder, in terms of both promoting BCR and answering the question, whether a new thread asking "Is anyone interested in a single player campaign game?" Then perhaps split thread into two parts:

1) Giving a BRIEF, and I mean VERY brief, intro to the rules (more like what they are and where to find them). Not the intro that appears at the start of the three threads as this may be a little lengthy for some.

2) Ask who is already playing.

You could always post in the links to the other three BCR threads too.

I've had a few mail me who've picked it up through my current signature which obviously displays in posts to other threads.

[ January 11, 2003, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Apache]

By the way, the modifiers only applied to the Task Force are still looking good. Not long until Winter!

IF I get time later I might have a go at a set of 'reverse engineered' rules for the Soviets. I do know a Soviet expert who I MAY, and I stress MAY, be able to persuade to give the result a look over before posting. This will take some time though.

[ January 11, 2003, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Shagnasty]

I'm a lurker, I'm afraid, but thought it worth breaking my silence to quickly reply to Biltong's recent question.

I haven't used these campaign rules yet. I was initially put off because I found it pretty daunting at "first glance".

But reading through this thread again, I'll be giving them a go this weekend. I really like the idea behind this campaign thing, and appreciate the time & effort everyone invovled has put into creating and refining it.

[Apache]

Nice one. Enjoy. Let us have some feedback.

[Sardaukar]

Yeah, it's bit daunting...but that's the only downside . Err..other downside is that I have been so busy playing new versions that I had no time to give feedback/input/suggestions lately

Cheers,

M.S.

[History Buff]

Been away down south wine and cheese tasting all week. But I'm back and the war will resume. Amazing how it will stop for a lowly Company CO who wants to have a holiday and get sloshed.

Anyway I'll endeavour to get some small maps done for the campaign before University starts again and send em your way Biltong.

Small? Villages? Towns? Rural? All?

[Apache]

Couple of thoughts - queries

1) With the date in v1.6 am I correct in assuming that if your previous battle was day 4, week 3, July and you roll a 10 the next is day 4, week 3 August? Personally I think the date section is getting darn cofusing. If I were to pick this up from scratch today I'm not sure I'd have a clue how Date worked. If you have rolled for weeks and then rolled again for 1 I guess you add on 1 week. When you then come to additional days do you add them on to previous days or does it merely denote the day of the week? I think the use of additional needs to be examined, it gives the impression that you add the days on, not always the case. Does it also need to be made clear that if you roll and it's days you merely add them on (moving to the next week if needed) and move on the next parameter, same if it's a month.

2) Is there any point in rolling up for Force type for Axis? If you set Infantry only in a QB you do not get Armour/Vehicles. We defeat the object in many cases because we are liable to get armour and vehicles support for every battle we do. Do we need modifiers that if you have rolled for an infantry only force you do not get armour/vehicles etc?

3) I'm sure this is on the forums but if anyone knows it may save me a lengthy search. When I set quality to unrestricted and I buy a regular infantry copmany I quite often get a green/conscript unit thrown in, happens with AFV platoon too. I presume, because we are not restricting quality the game is randomly picking lower units that we are buying. Is this fair to us. We are working quite hard to get our experience and, having earned it, should we not be setting quality in the QB to ensure we do not get troops of a quality way below what we have earned?

4) Any thoughts on previous suggestion re using the quality we roll for in replacements as the task force quality setting for the next battle too? Saves having to go through the motions of doing it again.

[ January 11, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[SuperSulo]

Originally posted by Apache:

Couple of thoughts - queries

1) With the date in v1.6 am I correct in assuming that if your previous battle was day 4, week 3, July and you roll a 10 the next is day 4, week 3 August? Personally I think the date section is getting darn cofusing. If I were to pick this up from scratch today I'm not sure I'd have a clue how Date worked. If you have rolled for weeks and then rolled again for 1 I guess you add on 1 week. When you then come to additional days do you add them on to previous days or does it merely denote the day of the week? I think the use of additional needs to be examined, it gives the impression that you add the days on, not always the case. Does it also need to be made clear that if you roll and it's days you merely add them on (moving to the next week if needed) and move on the next parameter, same if it's a month.

I can't really comment on the complexity, since I already understand/know how it works... That "Add one month only" is new for v1.6 right? I haven't noticed it before.

I think the phrase "roll again" can be a bit confusing, one could think that you roll again on the same chart, not just do a separate roll for days/weeks. Maybe it should be split up with:

Die 1: 1-5 = roll for days in 1a

6-8 = roll for days/weeks in 1b

9-10 = add on month

1a: 1-6 = add this many days

7-10 = roll again on 1a

1b: 1-3 = add this many weeks, go to 1a and roll for days

4-10 = roll again on 1b

Something like that but better worded/layed out

Originally posted by Apache:

2) Is there any point in rolling up for Force type for Axis? If you set Infantry only in a QB you do not get Armour/Vehicles. We defeat the object in many cases because we are liable to get armour and vehicles support for every battle we do. Do we need modifiers that if you have rolled for an infantry only force you do not get armour/vehicles etc?

No, there isn't. As it is now, it's actually "better" to get "infantry only", because then you can "cherry pick" your vehicles/armor.

I "solved" this by removing the Task Force category rolls and letting the Force Mix rule if I get any armor etc. Or you can remove the force mix completely and only go with the Task Force points, or as you said, let the Force Mix function as a modifier (more than it does now).

Or, just ignore this "error" and be glad you "always" get some armor/vehicle suppport.

Originally posted by Apache:

3) I'm sure this is on the forums but if anyone knows it may save me a lengthy search. When I set quality to unrestricted and I buy a regular infantry copmany I quite often get a green/conscript unit thrown in, happens with AFV platoon too. I presume, because we are not restricting quality the game is randomly picking lower units that we are buying. Is this fair to us. We are working quite hard to get our experience and, having earned it, should we not be setting quality in the QB to ensure we do not get troops of a quality way below what we have earned?

It's not the "unrestricted" that does that, it's just the way CM works. It always put some random experience on some units. That's one reason to use the scenario editor to set up your Battle Group.

Originally posted by Apache:

4) Any thoughts on previous suggestion re using the quality we roll for in replacements as the task force quality setting for the next battle too? Saves having to go through the motions of doing it again.

I don't know, it's just one more roll... And I often (read always) roll the replacement roll use after the battle has ended, and the task force roll whenever I get to roll up a new battle, could be days later. With just one roll, I have to remember/look back what I roll before. Don't know if that would be any easier than just roll again.

EDIT: fixed quotes

[ January 11, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: SuperSulo ]

[Apache]

Super S

I thought the date thing was me. I do think the date needs to be sorted out with a lot more clarity. I think it will put people off before they start.

Personally I'd go for:

9-10: Add 1 month (day and week stays the same) Then go to rule 2.

6-8: You will add Weeks. Roll again to get the number of weeks (if you roll 5+ roll again). Then add THAT number of weeks onto previous battle date which MAY move you into the next month. Then roll for THE day of THAT week (rather than number of days). 8+ roll again. Then go to rule 2.

1-5: ADD that number of days (which MAY move you into the next week). Then go to rule 2.

I think the Force type maybe needs a little more thought if it's to be of any use. If we select Infantry only for Soviets they get infantry only. If we roll infantry only we do not and to some extent that throws out the balance more IMHO than a lack of modifiers. I'd be quite happy to take on a 1500 - 2000 Soviet infantry only force with my core inf coy and AFVs alone. In fact I recently rolled up a game when I did just that.

I think the Force type should dictate what you get to roll up in your task force and we perhaps need modifiers acordingly or perhaps sub-rules. Just my 2 cents worth. At present I can see it serving little purpose.

[ January 11, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Aaron]

I'm a semi-lurker whose been playing for a few battles now. I've got some questions. I just got CMBB for X-mas so I'm behind the times. Forgive me if these are redundant.

1) Is the Battle Groups (minus attached units) always considered to be 653 points even if veteran or green. My Regular PzIV got replaced by a Green one and I don't know if this number should change.

2) Why would anybody ever use Favor to increase the size of their Task Force? Between the force size calculations rounding up and Handicap bonus, all your doing is creating more Russians that can kill your Battle Group.

3) Why is there such a small limit on number of Attached Units. I was thinking about buying several AT rifles, Tank Hunters and Snipers but your better off just buying a big tank. Maybe the limit should be in points instead?

I'm thinking of starting over as a normal Inf Company and replacing the tanks with a platoon of StugIIIs. I'll use the editor method next time as well.

Aaron

[Apache]

Aaron

Cost of the Battle group varies as they progress in quality. You will need to go to a QB screen each time they go up a grade to see what the cost is and fill those in.

If you roll up a certain type of battle and get zilch in certain categories it can be problemtatic. If you are assaulting for instance a heavily defended position against a Soviet armour or combined outfit and get very little mobile AT assets you could face a tough time. On assault, attack and probe sceanrios the Soviet forces will be balanced by the applied modifiers. If you're defending the Soviets will only get what they should get. I'd be quite happy to see the Soviets get extra points to spend if it meant the difference between arty and no arty etc. I can do A LOT of damage with relatively few points in certain categories

The attached units are meant to represent the odd few troops that you persuade or coerce into joining your group, representing to some degree, troops that have become detached from parent units. Hence few points. I tend to run them up until I can afford an extra platoon (say Pioneers or something) rather than spend piecemeal on s/shooters etc.

I use a platoon of different AFVs depending on the mission. It varies each time and I try to reflect the historical likelihood of getting them. e.g. not likely to get a platoon of Tigers each battle when they first hit the front (BTW I rarely if ever use Tigers).

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

Biltong,

Not sure but this thread may only attract players who are playing already, and even some of those may not have kept pace after thread 2.

I wonder, in terms of both promoting BCR and answering the question, whether a new thread asking "Is anyone interested in a single player campaign game?" Then perhaps split thread into two parts:

1) Giving a BRIEF, and I mean VERY brief, intro to the rules (more like what they are and where to find them). Not the intro that appears at the start of the three threads as this may be a little lengthy for some.

2) Ask who is already playing.

You could always post in the links to the other three BCR threads too.

I've had a few mail me who've picked it up through my current signature which obviously displays in posts to other threads.

Good idea Apache After Monday's update I'll be preparing for the 'Final' Version 2 release. Then I'll use your suggestions.

This release date will depend on when The Scalpel is finished with the newbie Walkthrough.

You seem to be good with marketing... Maybe you want to put something together for the version 2 release?

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

By the way, the modifiers only applied to the Task Force are still looking good. Not long until Winter!

IF I get time later I might have a go at a set of 'reverse engineered' rules for the Soviets. I do know a Soviet expert who I MAY, and I stress MAY, be able to persuade to give the result a look over before posting. This will take some time though.

Sounds good. How many guys would be interested in playing the soviet side? I remember one guy asking about it in the early days, but that is all. Don't do it if you don't want to play it yourself or if there's not some sort of demand for it. It's bound to be quite a bit of work.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Shagnasty:

I'm a lurker, I'm afraid, but thought it worth breaking my silence to quickly reply to Biltong's recent question.

I haven't used these campaign rules yet. I was initially put off because I found it pretty daunting at "first glance".

But reading through this thread again, I'll be giving them a go this weekend. I really like the idea behind this campaign thing, and appreciate the time & effort everyone invovled has put into creating and refining it.

Welcome

If you have any queries - just post here - the guys are normally quite fast with help.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by History Buff:

Been away down south wine and cheese tasting all week. But I'm back and the war will resume. Amazing how it will stop for a lowly Company CO who wants to have a holiday and get sloshed.

Anyway I'll endeavour to get some small maps done for the campaign before University starts again and send em your way Biltong.

Small? Villages? Towns? Rural? All?

Wine & cheese - Damn - can do with a bit of that.

Small maps - all!! We need quite a lot of them. We've got nearly 120 maps now! But we are short on small ones. The more the merrier. I see some poor guy got slaugtered when he put a couple of map pack(s) together...

We'll BCR is easy - If you need a map pack comingetit!

[Peterk]

Hi Biltong,

I finally started playing after a few months of doing only PBEM's. The rules are well laid out and aren't too confusing. I love the spreadsheet approach. The premade map approach is excellent.

Is anyone using the Python BCR helper??? If yes, does anyone have a solution for an annoying little problem I've been having. It runs in a little DOS shell window, which in WIn98 unfortunately does not have have a scrollback buffer. The scenario parameters scroll off the window before I can get to see them. I've tried all sorts of little tricks to try and log the session to a file or something but can't get it going.

I'm going to toss an idea out that people will probably hate, but it does make things easier. I didn't like it in the original Wreck's rules and did a bit of experimentation early on when CMBB came out. One of the most annoying things in the sequence performed to get a new scenario going is having to generate a phony scenario just to get CMBB to generate AUX forces which may or may not match closely to the type of AUX forces that are supposed to be used in the upcoming battle. Why not just make a roll that maps to a rarity factor and then allow the player to freely buy whatever he wants in the 4 families of units??? Speeds things up and usually the results are more or less the same between the two systems.

Any plans to take this on into 1942??? A Stalingrad campaign might be quite interesting all on its own.

[Biltong]

Apache & SuperS

Took note of your ‘Date’ concerns – as you say: This is the first thing a new player will encounter. The complexity is a problem, but there are so many modifiers and parameters at play here, it is bloody difficult to simplify it. I scheduled it to look at again (6th time?). Hopefully The Scalpel’s Walkthrough will help to solve the problem.

2) Is there any point in rolling up for Force type for Axis? If you set Infantry only in a QB you do not get Armour/Vehicles. We defeat the object in many cases because we are liable to get armour and vehicles support for every battle we do.

not true, Apache - see below

Do we need modifiers that if you have rolled for an infantry only force you do not get armour/vehicles etc?

SS

No, there isn't. As it is now, it's actually "better" to get "infantry only", because then you can "cherry pick" your vehicles/armor.

I "solved" this by removing the Task Force category rolls and letting the Force Mix rule if I get any armor etc. Or you can remove the force mix completely and only go with the Task Force points, or as you said, let the Force Mix function as a modifier (more than it does now).

Or, just ignore this "error" and be glad you "always" get some armor/vehicle suppport.

You don’t ‘always’ get vehicles/armor. Both categories have the same modifier: “Axis Force Mix: Infantry –3” I.e.: you only have a 50% chance of getting something. And then you won’t get much. The rationale is: This is a Battle Group and as such it will have some armor/vehicles SOME of the time. In fact this caters for players who hate infantry only battles… at least they have a 50% chance of getting something small.

3) I'm sure this is on the…

Answered By SuperS

4) Any thoughts on previous suggestion re using the quality we roll for in replacements as the task force quality setting for the next battle too?

The single extra roll does nor warrant the extra lines/note?/complexity That will be needed. IMHO.

Aaron

I'm a semi-lurker whose been playing for a few battles now. I've got some questions. I just got CMBB for X-mas so I'm behind the times. Forgive me if these are redundant.

No problem & welcome!

1) Is the Battle Groups (minus attached units) always considered to be 653 points even if veteran or green. My Regular PzIV got replaced by a Green one and I don't know if this number should change.

The latest update due on Monday has a line in Note 4 Battle Group:

“Please note that the point cost changes with fitness, quality and date, so the price is not a constant. Check before each battle for a change. Use the Scenario Editor.”

2) Why would anybody ever use Favor to increase the size of their Task Force? Between the force size calculations rounding up and Handicap bonus, all your doing is creating more Russians that can kill your Battle Group.

Not quite… The idea is to save your Battle Group.

Note 17 states: “Can trade in 10 points of Favor to alter die by maximum of 3” Note 3!

E.g.: You can increase the infantry component of your Task Force from 50 to 125. Now you can buy a platoon that can lead the way and save you from using a platoon from your company to do the suicidal scouting work. Great investment.

3) Why is there such a small limit on number of Attached Units. I was thinking about buying several AT rifles, Tank Hunters and Snipers but your better off just buying a big tank. Maybe the limit should be in points instead?

The limit is there:

1) To keep the number of units down – simply for ease and to prevent players from swamping themselves with so much complexity that they give up after a battle or two.

2) To prevent the Attached Units from becoming the main driving force. I want the players to become involved and attached to the Battle Group not to the Attached units.

I'm thinking of starting over as a normal Inf Company and replacing the tanks with a platoon of StugIIIs. I'll use the editor method next time as well.

There we go!! Whatever turns you on. That’s one of the main ideas of BCR: The rules must enable players to modify it to their own taste. All of BCR are just suggestions. You can modify as much as you want to suit your own taste.

Biltong