Bone_Vulture Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: I dunno, works for me. If I ever had to face up to a Ferdinand armed only with an ATR I reckon I'd probably adopt my best "Brave Sir Robin" impersonation and bugger off quick smart! *Whips out a Tokarev* Whaaat! I will not hear this counter-revolutionary disinformation! The antitank rifle of the Great Patriotic Army of United Workers will penetrate the front of any German armor. If not the first shot, then the second! UUUURRRRAAAAAA!! :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 yeah man, you like, just have to aim at the same point and think positive thoughts... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: The Ferdinand crew was rocked - back, and to the left... again on the replay... back, and to the left... HAHAHA </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: Hey Bone_Vulture... that was some reaction from the supposed "anti-comedy" brigade Signature changed accordingly. I found the line to be a bit morbid, remembering the movie "JFK", but 'twas very witty indeed. [EDIT] Oh yeah, and remember that the weight is on "comedy".... Anti-"comedy". That's "comedy" as in "is that a 88/L71 or are you just happy to see me?". [ April 19, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Bone_Vulture ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rum Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Whaaat! I will not hear this counter-revolutionary disinformation! The antitank rifle of the Great Patriotic Army of United Workers will penetrate the front of any German armor. IIf you read the soviet Kursk Battle AAR, you could learn what one of the 21 Ferdinantswhich were killed had the only damage - ATR shot-thru its barrel and rendered Ferdinand unsuable, so crew abandoned the vehicle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Originally posted by KG_Chipaev: Well Joachim, since you're so bright, why don't you tell us what the Big Red and Big White one at the bottom mean? Or can't you read Russian such as moi? I had two years of Russian, but not a single year of small print. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chipaev Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I appologize for getting snappy with you joachim, was in a bad mood that day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3333cr333tz Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Ya, I was gonna say. The end of that barrel seems to be a nice big target for an ATR ;p Rattle a couple rounds down the barrel is probably your best bet ;p 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Originally posted by KG_Chipaev: I appologize for getting snappy with you joachim, was in a bad mood that day. No problem. I'm in a bad mood every day and I am sarcastic any day. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Seems on the first drawing that they forget to tell the comerades that the rear hatch should be open to throw a handgrenade in... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Originally posted by tools4fools: Seems on the first drawing that they forget to tell the comerades that the rear hatch should be open to throw a handgrenade in... Actually, I believe those aren't just regular grenades, but RPG-43s. They are hand-thrown HEAT rounds with a 75mm penetration. Hence, the other diagram showing what looks like a hand grenade being thrown upon the top of the Ferdinand. I know of no German tank that could defeat an RPG-43 with its top armor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beholders Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 I can't find the ferdinand on the senario editor where is it found and what time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Perhaps it's listed as an Elefant? They were known under either name. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Perhaps it's listed as an Elefant? They were known under either name. Two slightly different tanks. According to the excel chart, the Ferdinand is available from July '43, and the Elephant from April '44. No other discernible differences except an MG added to the Elephant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 What the poster doesn't show is the ever popular "Banana in the tailpipe" method. From what I understand the Soviets had a hard time getting their hands on bunches of the dangerous fruit. Uhhh...uhhh...just kidding. Neat illustration. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 So the soviet conscripts never had the benefit of learning how to defend oneself in hand to hand combat against a man armed with a banana, unlike the British? How very uncivilised. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Zitadelle, Thanks for the great post. Russian penetration range figures, like those of other nations, should always be looked at with suspicion at first examination. The Russians sometimes compared the face-hardened penetration of their guns to homogeneous armor on German tanks and calculated a range which was not correct. Real firing test data has been found from Russian sources, the question is whether the Ferdinand figures are calculated or firing trial, and if calculated whether they used face-hardened penetration data. Many sources say the Ferdinand and Elefant carried homogeneous armor. At Kursk, a Ferdinand/Elefant was hit many times at close to medium range by 76.2mm rounds with only one non-damaging penetration. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 OnWar site has following armor stats for Ferdinand: Side Hull has 60mm vertical and 80mm vertical Superstructure has 80mm at 30 degrees from vert. Rear Lower hull has 80mm vert. and 80mm at 40 degrees from vert. Superstructure has 80mm at 20 degrees from vert. Russian data appears to show 85mm and 60mm for Ferdinand side armor. Drawing indicates that 76.2mm AP penetrates 80mm/30 degrees at 300m, and 76.2mm APCR penetrates same armor at 300m. 76.2mm AP will not penetrate 80mm/30 degrees at 300m, even if it is pointed nose solid shot round. Russian data suggests 76.2mm APCR will not defeat 80mm/30 degrees at 300m. 45mm APCR penetrates 60mm vertical at 500m (Ferdinand might have 80mm vertical on upper and lower hull side vertical areas, this should be checked). Russian penetration data for 45mm M42 APCR has 80mm vertical at 500m. Ferdinand penetration range drawings appear to show same range for 76.2mm APCR against 80mm vertical (side hull) and 80mm at 30 degrees from vertical (side superstructure), which is a little "iffy", someone forgot the impact of slope effect, which makes a 30 degree slope almost 40% more resistant than same plate at vertical. The Russian penetration range figures look questionable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 One of the peculiarities of Russian penetration range data is that it often ignores great variations in armor slope. Tiger driver plate and nose are same thickness at 9 and 25 degrees slope from vertical, same penetration range is given against both in Russian pamphlet on fighting German heavy tanks. This pamphlet is based on calculations since actual firing trials against a captured Tiger were not yet made when the pamphlet was written. Ferdinand upper side hull and side superstructure is listed as 85mm and angles are 0 and 30 degrees, yet same range is given for 76.2mm APCR. Seems like someone who didn't understand slope effect did the research and wrote the results in both of the above cases, which suggests that neither is based on firing trials. It is possible that the ranges given against the Ferdinand are not penetration ranges but refer to when the target would be considered vulnerable and the first shots should be fired. I don't read Russian so maybe someone can translate what the ranges are supposed to mean. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by rexford: At Kursk, a Ferdinand/Elefant was hit many times at close to medium range by 76.2mm rounds with only one non-damaging penetration. I assume you meant to say only one damaging penetration? Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Or only one penetration that didn't even do some damage. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valera Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by KG_Chipaev: Well Joachim, since you're so bright, why don't you tell us what the Big Red and Big White one at the bottom mean? Or can't you read Russian such as moi? On the first picture Legend in the left bottom part means from top to down: 1. 45mm subcaliber projectile 2. 76.2vv subcaliber 3. AP with labelled caliber (in mm) 4. AP and HE from any caliber projectiles 5. HE from any caliber projectiles 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Thanks Valera for that. The mystery has finally been solved. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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