Please close this topic.

[eichenbaum]

Originally posted by Lars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eichenbaum:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lars:

...Give me a convoy command instead.

You want that with or without MP ? </font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

Smoking Police Dog On Motorcycle

Is this also why you want telephone poles?

[eichenbaum]

Found something on www.feldgrau.com :

Introduction to WWII German Weapons :

The Germans also used motorcycles extensively for liason and reconnaissance purposes. BMW, NSU, DKW, and Zundapp produced motorcycles for the German Army. The BMW R/75 746cc 26hp motorcycle is perhaps the best known type, however. All tank divisions had motorcycle infantry units. Two or three motorcycle companies and a HQ company formed a motorcycle battalion. An average infantry division on the Easten Front in the early stage of the war used 452 motorcycles including those with a sidecar, made up as follows: 17 (HQ co.), 45 (recon unit), 32 (signal battalion), 141 (infantry regiment), 40 (artillery regiment), 45 (anti-tank gun battalion), 44 (engineer battalion), and 88 (supply unit). The average infantry division in 1943 to 1944 came to use an increasing number of Kubelwagens and Kettenkrads which had excellent durability and various uses in place of motorcycles. Thus, the number of motorcycles was reduced to 168. The German Army originally grouped motorcycles into 3 classes: small class under 350cc, middle class 350cc-500cc, and large class over 500cc. Most early models of German military motorcycles proved unreliable after the invasion of Russia and only the BMW R/75 was rugged enough to do the job. It's reliability was such that after the war the Russian Army used faithful copies of the BMW R/75 called the K-M72.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

I want to take the dead from previous battles and impale them onto 20' tall wooden spikes, then set them up along my enemy's approach routes.

Thousands of spikes, Tens of thousands, all lining the roads. With swarms of vultures circling overhead.

Now there's a fresh idea!

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Lars:

Yeah, but who's going to bother moving a empty one up into the front lines along with the full ones?

A gamey bastiche like...like...well, any one of us actually.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

When Monty made an attack on Rommel in North Afrika British tanks were covered with metal frame and canvas that looked like a regular truck. This way Monty could maneuver his tanks in the open desert and the Germans left those alone.

That was Operation Crusader, nine or ten months before Monty arrived on the scene.

Better stick with inkblots.

Michael

[Pak40]

OPERATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE (Operatieve Aufklärung)

Operational reconnaissance, penetrating over a large area in great depth, provides the basis for strategic planning and action. This type of reconnaissance is intended to determine the location and activities of enemy forces, particularly localities of rail concentrations, forward or rearward displacements of personnel, loading or unloading areas of army elements, the construction of field or permanent fortifications, and hostile air force concentrations. Identification of large enemy motorised elements, especially on an open flank, is important. Operational reconnaissance is carried out by the Air Force and by motorised units. Aerial photography units operate at altitudes of 16,500 to 26,500 feet. Since missions assigned to operational air reconnaissance are generally limited to the observation of important roads and railroads, reconnaissance sectors and areas normally are not assigned. The motorised units employed for operational reconnaissance have only directions and objectives assigned.

- Terrain Reconnaissance (Gelandeerkundung) : The Germans place great emphasis on terrain reconnaissance, realising the influence terrain has upon the conduct of operations. Most of their usual reconnaissance missions include terrain reconnaissance tasks. Terrain may be so important at times as to require reconnaissance by special units. Ground and air reconnaissance units give special

- Battle Reconnaissance (Spahtruppen) : The Germans send out reconnaissance patrols consisting of a non-commissioned officer and three or four men, to get such information as the location of enemy positions and minefields. They generally avoid contact and retreat when fired on.

(Blitzkrieg Doctrine)

The term Motorised for Germans also meant the use of motorcycles. If you look a few postings back you'll see a typical German motorcycle. With 2 man crew and a MG mounted, this vehicle is much more effective then a truck or kübelwagen. It's armed, it's fast and has good off-road ability's. Now way you can compare a motorcycle to a kübelwagen or a truck.

Playing a huge battle with Blitzkrieg tactics creates the need of vehicles that can keep up with the reconnaissance task that some units have. I would rather not use a truck or kübelwagen in enemy territory. You cannot get off the roads and hiding such vehicles is almost impossible. The MG mounted on the fast motorcycles also give the units enough firepower to get the hack out of dangerous situations.

Reconnaissance is a tactical move and is not 'gamy'. How it's done by CM players is an other thing. Of coarse does the scenario need to have the space to use these moves.

Eichenbaum [/QB]

[eichenbaum]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eichenbaum:

When Monty made an attack on Rommel in North Afrika British tanks were covered with metal frame and canvas that looked like a regular truck. This way Monty could maneuver his tanks in the open desert and the Germans left those alone.

That was Operation Crusader, nine or ten months before Monty arrived on the scene.

Better stick with inkblots.

Michael </font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

Tracking small faulty details we call in the Netherlands "Mieren Neuken"

Like, say, covered trucks?

[eichenbaum]

Mieren Neuken

Maybe I should rephrase these suppressed negative reflections in a different perspective. The knowledge of a mistake in the actions of my sub consciousness result in a crack in the fragile egg shell mind. Cranked as my neurons emit, how unstable the gland produces its phenyl- and indole-type hormones. Pour in another glass of that fine old psychodeleptic Port.

mmmm a Vintage

[ August 15, 2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: eichenbaum ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eichenbaum:

When Monty made an attack on Rommel in North Afrika British tanks were covered with metal frame and canvas that looked like a regular truck. This way Monty could maneuver his tanks in the open desert and the Germans left those alone.

That was Operation Crusader, nine or ten months before Monty arrived on the scene.

Better stick with inkblots.

Michael </font>

[Ruthless]

Originally posted by Pak40:

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that motorcycles don't belong in CM. I just don't see the need to waste the resources at this point. I'd rather see better AI, easier mapping utilities, a campaign mode and there are about a million other things that could be improved or added before bikes and motorcycles are put in.

I think--and this is just a guess-- maybe part of the reason Eichenbaum wants these units in CM is because of the campaign mode you mentioned. If one breaks through the front lines, one would expect to find rear-area troops, supplies, cooks, ninjas, pirates, sharks riding elephants, generals napping, privates digging latrines, etc.

In other words, once you start trying to model something more than just the very front line, you start needing things like supply lines and real reconnaisance, etc.

I think there may very well be a place for some of these objects (especially ninjas wailing on guitars) in a later version of CM (certainly not CMAK), but it depends how BFC chooses to model things and what they choose to model. So far, they've done a pretty good job at creating a good tactical wargame for the very front of the lines, but next it remains to be seen in what direction they wish to make changes.

I would vote that they should improve their current model first (perhaps include modelling of individual soldiers), vastly overhaul the orders system (add SOPs and more complex types of orders), improve the tacAI, fix Borg Spotting, etc. After that, they can start adjusting the scale and adding units.

[Juju]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

And you, sir, will never make a grog! We all **** ants!

Not like we do...

[eichenbaum]

Well Michael, if you're such an expert in warfare & history you could help me out with Operation Störfang. I'm a perfectionist but not a Mieren Neuker.

[eichenbaum]

Originally posted by Ruthless:

I would vote that they should improve their current model first (perhaps include modelling of individual soldiers), vastly overhaul the orders system (add SOPs and more complex types of orders), improve the tacAI, fix Borg Spotting, etc. After that, they can start adjusting the scale and adding units.

That's well said and I agree to that. BFC should always go for the realism and a 'bug'-free engine. Though we have to take in account that they might not have the manpower or finance to create this game we would very like to see. While developing they'll have to deal with deadlines and money.

I started this topic to see what the opinion is of the players, modders and scenario designers about units and objects that were not included in this wonderful game.

It's a fantastic game, that's my personal opinion. It's not finished yet. All the comments will prove that. The graphics in CM aren't quite in the same level as other 3d games that appear on the market. But the magnificent calculations of the battlefield are unique.

I do hope that BFC analyze these kind of discussions and use the results in CMX2 or future versions of CM.

For me, personally, the graphics and object can't be refined enough. Highly detailed, full of every-day objects and maybe civilians, that's the wargame I'm dreaming about. You can't put a bunch of Tigers and IS-2's on a map and say "That's what WWII is about" (I does give a lot of fun playing such scenarios though).

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

Well Michael, if you're such an expert in warfare & history you could help me out with Operation Störfang.

What? Do some actual work? Me? What would Mycroft Holmes say?

But seriously, if you have any questions, ask away. But be warned: there are many people, some few of them on this board, who have far greater expertise on the Eastern Front than I.

I'm a perfectionist but not a Mieren Neuker.

Maybe you should start off with something easy like a cockroach or a woodlouse.

Michael

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

I would rather not use a truck or kübelwagen in enemy territory. You cannot get off the roads and hiding such vehicles is almost impossible. The MG mounted on the fast motorcycles also give the units enough firepower to get the hack out of dangerous situations.

...

i would rather have kubelwagens with mgs... but in 1941 the germans were using motorcycles... by 1942 the leibstandarte for instance had gone over to kubelwagens in their recon battalion... if the motorcycles had been better, they probably wouldn't have switched to kubelwagens...

so my own argument in favor of motorcycles is not so much that they would be 'better' but that - in 1941 and earlier at least - they were 'more common' to the recon elements

as for 'each division having a motorcycle battalion' as i'd earlier stated... well that's probably in actuality not true but i'll bet each division - even infantry - at least had a motorcycle company in 1941 and earlier...

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by manchildstein II:

the german 1941 'to&e' has motorcycle battalions integral to most if not all of the division-sized formations...

The Panzer divisions and maybe the motorized divisions. The infantry divisions, which formed the great bulk of the Heer, did not get them.

Michael </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by manchildstein II:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by manchildstein II:

the german 1941 'to&e' has motorcycle battalions integral to most if not all of the division-sized formations...

The Panzer divisions and maybe the motorized divisions. The infantry divisions, which formed the great bulk of the Heer, did not get them.

Michael </font>

[eichenbaum]

So, if motorcycles are being used for reconnaissance on a divisional level, I would build a scenario where you have to scout a large area (3 x 4 km) for enemy positions and point them for artillery bombardments. Then wait a few hours until the Aufkärungs Truppen arrive on the scene (German vs. AI - 480 minutes battle)

<HR><table width="80%" border="0" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2"><tr> <td width="10%"><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox" value="checkbox" disabled></div></td><td width="90%"><s>Horses (with or without wagons)</s></td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox2" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>Motorcycles</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox3" value="checkbox" disabled></div></td><td><s>Bicycles</s></td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox43" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>Antitank objects (Concrete Pillars, Steel Crosses etc..)</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox42" value="checkbox" disabled></div></td><td><s>Bulldozers</s></td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox4" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>Closed trucks (with canvas)</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox5" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>Train Station</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox6" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>2 meters tall stone walls</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"> <input type="checkbox" name="checkbox7" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>Telephone poles</td></tr><tr> <td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox8" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>Stairs for slopes</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox9" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>Dirt tiles</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox102" value="checkbox" checked></div></td><td>Abby's / Cloisters</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"><input type="checkbox" name="checkbox103" value="checkbox"></div></td><td>A Real dropping of paratroopers (falling out of the sky)</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"> <input type="checkbox" name="checkbox10" value="checkbox"></div></td><td>On map artillery (for use with target referention points)</td></tr></table><HR>

[eichenbaum]

An 8 hours long operation....

mmmmmmmm .... Guess I'll be waiting for Hidden & Dangerous 2

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

So, if motorcycles are being used for reconnaissance on a divisional level, I would build a scenario where you have to scout a large area (3 x 4 km) for enemy positions and point them for artillery bombardments.

It would be very nice if the engine rewrite could include a greater variety of victory conditions, such as identifying enemy locations and strengths. This would open up a whole new type of scenario. Elimination of borg spotting would make this more challenging as the discovering unit(s) would have to stay alive in order to report their information back to the relevant HQs. We could then start to get into some real-world tactics on this issue. Counter-recon anyone? Maybe all those armored cars will actually start to come into their own.

Which leads me to another thought: even though we can make a case that motorcycles should constitute a presence in CM (at least in the early years), we are still stuck on the problem of whether they can be present, i.e. the problems of programming them already stated. These cannot simply be waved away.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

An 8 hours long operation....

Er, no thanks. I already start to get bored after 20 turns; but then, tactical games never really were my forte.

Michael

[eichenbaum]

Borg spotting can be removed from CM if communication between units can only be established with radio's, telephones, shouting, pigeons and men on fast moving vehicles like motorcycles, kübelwagens, horses and bicycles.

Programming extra vehicles can't be that much different from programming a kübelwagen.

And if you can program units on ski's why can't you make a unit on a horse or on a motorcycle ?

BFC did a lot of programming before.

CMBO and CMBB don't have to be changed if you asked me. Just giving some ideas for future CM versions (like CMAK or CMX2).

ps. If you're wundering about the pigeons ; it's just a joke !

[ August 16, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: eichenbaum ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

And if you can program units on ski's why can't you make a unit on a horse or on a motorcycle ?

Because vehicles are programmed individually and personnel are not. This has already been gone over.

Whether this condition would still exist after the engine rewrite is up to BFC. It also depends on how fast players' computers are in a year or so. Think of a company-sized action that requires the same power as "To the Volga".

Michael