Rarity and the Sherman 76 in CMAK ?

[Hannibal]

I was reading the oprey new Vangaurd book on the Serman tank .The the Sherman 76 only made up about 10 percent of the Shermans produced .Does anybody know wha sort of rarity penalty there will be in CMAK? It will be interesting going up agains Tigers and Panthers with forces concisting of Sherman 75s .

[ April 19, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

[jjhays]

Maybe up against Tigers in Tunisia which would be rare but I dont recall there being panthers in North Afrika. Yes most Shermans from the time of Torch to the italian campaign were 75mm. I would expect to see battles against MK IV's and III's.

[Michael Dorosh]

My understanding is that Sherman 76s - and Fireflies - were very rare in Italy and weren't used at all in North Africa.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

My understanding is that Sherman 76s - and Fireflies - were very rare in Italy and weren't used at all in North Africa.

I'm wondering if there's a flip side to this. I'm not grog enough to have the numbers, but it seems likely that the Germans wouldn't be sending their best tanks--all pretty scarce--to the mountainous, secondary battlefront of Italy. So, I'm guessing that Tigers, Panthers, and KTs would be quite rare in Italy--whereas current model Panthers, at least, have little or no rarity cost in Russia after about March 1944-- and that that would have a causative effect on Allied dispositions, making Sherm76s also quite rare.

So with standard rarity on, we may see battles featuring predominantly Sherm 75s on the one side and PzIVs and Stugs on the other. On the other hand, if Panthers are not rare and Sherm 76's and Fireflies are, that could cause problems. I do believe there were a few M-10s, but they aren't quite the equal of Panthers.

[Maj. Battaglia]

I think Dorosh is correct about no 76mm Shermans being found in North Africa. Same with Fireflies, for that matter. The 17 pdr made its combat debut as an AT gun on 6 March 1943 in Tunisia. Both the 17 pdr and US 76mm were fitted to the Sherman in late 1943, in the latter case after the US shelved the T20 tank program. This is according to Macksey's "Tank Versus Tank."

As a bonus, though, maybe we'll see the early Shermans with dual bow mgs!

And CombinedArms, you are correct that the Germans did not send many tanks or panzer divisions to Italy. Not to say there weren't any (Hermann Göring Panzer was in Sicily), but given the terrain, they relied on AT guns and TDs for the most part. I have even seen somewhere how the Germans used Panther turrets as makeshift pillboxes. I suppose you could use a dug in Panther to represent this.

[Nippy]

I'm not grog enough to have the numbers, but it seems likely that the Germans wouldn't be sending their best tanks--all pretty scarce--to the mountainous, secondary battlefront of Italy.

After the Battle of Kursk, the Germans added a hull Machinegun to the Elephant TD and sent them to Italy. Of course, they were very few (60?) and the rairity cost will be horrific.

But still, the long 88 and 250mm armor on that thing is a pain...

[SFJaykey]

I've read that most of the Elefants were sent to Italy, after being upgraded from Ferdinands.

Also recall an anecdote about the first appearance of the long-barrelled PzIVs in Italy: a US recon unit, unfamiliar with long-barrelled German tanks, mistook them for cranes or recovery vehicles, and thought they had come across a maintenance unit....the US combat unit following up was quite disappointed in the error!

Actually, to me the story sounds like a better description of the Panther with the 70mm/L70, but am sure it referred to the PzIV...maybe the PzIV/70 or the JgdPzIV?

- Matt

[ April 19, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: SFJaykey ]

[Michael Dorosh]

I do believe a (relative) handful of Panthers and Tigers saw action in Italy; the first Tiger killed by a Canadian was in that theatre IIRC.

[JasonC]

There were about 40 Tigers in Tunisia in 2 units, 501 and 504, about a company apiece. With about half running at any given time. 17 from the 504 fought in Sicily with the Herman Goering division.

In Italy, the 504 (rebuilt) and 508 (post Anzio) kept 1 and 2 companies of Tigers in the field at a time, respectively, going through around 170 Tigers to do so.

So between them, the theater saw around 225 Tigers, or about 1/6th of total production. A significant portion of the fleet. But for the most part committed piecemeal, in company sized units.

504 was full strength when first committed in Italy after its rebuild, but had only 9 runners by the end of its 2nd month in action. With replacements, it once saw 32 runners again, but normally was about company strength.

508 was over full strength for the initial attack at Anzio, incorporating a Fkl company and later an alert unit (Tigergruppe Meyer, with 8 Tigers). It was down to 2 companies by the time of the Gothic line fighting, lost vehicles under repair in each retreat, and after that typically had 1 company in action.

As for Allied weapons in Tunisia, there were no 76mm Shermans even made until 1944. The US had Sherman 75s and Priests. The standard TD was the M3 gun motor carriage, but a few M10s became available before the end of the Tunisia campaign.

The best the Brits had were 6 pdr Churchill IIIs and IVs, 6 pdr Crusader IIIs (a small number of converted Churchill 75s, too), some late 6 pdr Valentine models, and LL Sherman 75s. They were still using some 2 pdr Crusader IIs and earlier Valentines when 8th Army reached Tunisia.

If you read accounts of fights against Tigers in 1943, it is apparent the basic tactic was artillery fire stripping infantry off of them. They could not proceed further without losing tanks. (Ahead of the rest, immobilization means destruction). 105mm HEAT, a few 76mm M10s, and flank shots by 57mm, 75mm, zooks and PIATs, were also threats.

Sometimes the Germans would overrun a battalion, but then find themselves in the midst of larger Allied formations. A hail of arty fire and a gun front stopped further progress, left the heavies naked of other support and in danger of loss, and they retreated.

I hope this helps.

[Soddball]

M3 GMC? Is that a halftrack with an AT gun on it? Any links to pictures or info - I've been wondering about those things since reading a book on the Tunisian campaign and wondered where to find out about them.

[demoss]

M3 GMC? Is that a halftrack with an AT gun on it?

No link handy, but yes. 75 mm, I think - not sure if it was the same one as on the Sherman. I believe they actually debuted in the Philippines, and were around for Tunisia.

[MikeyD]

A VERY VERY handy link on the M3 GMC:

http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors/m3gmc/m3gmc2.html

AFV Interiors Web Magazine is an amazing site.

There's also complete info and scale drawings in R.P. Hunnicutt's "Half-track, history of America's semi-tracked vehicles" out a couple years back.

As an aside for you mod sluts, check out the name of the guy who did the scale drawings for that book