Of modern tanks and their ammo + others...

[John Kettler]

Would also like to add that NATO has had to do full blown radiological cleanups at every site in Serbia

where DU munitions were used. Some 300 tons of DU were expended in Gulf I, and I don't yet have figures for Gulf II, but no radiological cleanup has been done that I know of. The DU residue blows where the wind takes it, and soldiers and reporters alike drove through the old battlefields from Gulf I with no one wearing a gas mask. Post Gulf I cancer rates in Iraq have been astronomic, with occurrence rates for rare types of cancer through the roof. Ironic that we went to war over WMD, yet used en masse conventional weapons which were known

vehicles for spreading radioactive waste. And all the time we fret about terrorists using "dirty" bombs. Rich!

I had no idea the British still used HESH, but I concur as to the spin issue, and the Challenger II's gun is rifled. Otherwise, expensive measures would be required to despin the HEAT projectile. As

for gun-launched missiles, the Soviets had them for the T-55 (100mm), T-62 (115mm); T-64, T-72, T-80 (125mm), and the practice has continued since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Blame it on Hitler's

Germany, for it was the Germans who pioneered the antitank guided missile, in the form of the wire guided X-7.

Regards,

John Kettler

[urefinger]

thanks for the replies, but I'd really discount the HE affect of HEAT rounds as my uncle actually fire them at infatry - and noted that he hit the ground not 5 metres from the guy he was aiming at - just to see the guy pick himself up and start running again.

although sitting around in a tank that full of radioactive dust probably isnt that good for your health i doubt - unless you were in there for a long time - it would kill you, the reason the UN made such a big fuss about tanks that were shot with this ammo would probably becuase they want to be SEEN to be doing it because people have an irrational fear of radiation. a simple "kids - dont play on this tank" sign would probably do (if kids ever payed attention to those signs )

flamingknives : im not fully sure what you mean by what you said. are you saying that the effect of HESH rounds is not affected by the spin that rifling puts on them whereas a spin on a AP round well degrade its effectivness :confused:

also, if anyone got a link to some-sort of an ammunition page it would be helpfull...

NB - just checked the t-80 fires the AT8 ATGW rom its 125mm main gun

ps - it does indeed appear that many modern MBT's have smooth bore guns...why? doesn't that degrade the accuracy horribly? and if not, why not? furthermore, why does the brittish challenger two still have a rifled main gun?

[Zarquon]

A quick search on www.fas.org turns up a few things:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs99/990406-kosovo-du.htm

"[...] U.S. and Allied forces fired approximately 315 tons of depleted uranium

during the Persian Gulf War. The effectiveness of the depleted uranium

penetrators led the United States and Allied forces to introduce them into

their military arsenal. However, at no time during the Gulf War did the

U.S. or Allied forces brief ground troops of the safety hazards of this

radioactive material or of safety measures for its handling. Allied

personnel most likely to have come in contact with this material are ground

forces who encountered equipment struck by DU penetrators, crews of

military equipment who fired DU, Allied forces involved in friendly fire

incidents, and curious soldiers who entered into or around DU strike

points. Information released by the U.S. Department of Defense demonstrates

that most of the troops deployed in the Gulf came into contact with DU

munitions or passed through contaminated areas.*

When a DU penetrator makes contact with a solid object and burns, the

radioactive U-238 aerosolizes and is emitted into the environment in tiny

particles called particulates. According to scientific research, these

particulates in U-238 can be transported by wind or water and have been

known to travel over 26 miles from their initial source of emission. The

toxic material can enter the human body through inhalation, ingestion,

exploded fragments or other wound contamination.

Many questions have been raised by veterans and other public interest

groups about the contribution of depleted uranium contamination to the

"Gulf War syndrome" that has affected over 100,000 U.S. and Allied service

people who saw action in the Gulf War. The World Health Organization has

launched a two-year study of the possible link between DU exposure and the

dramatically increased cancer rates in southern Iraq since 1991. The U.N.

Human Rights Commission has requested the U.N. Secretary-General to produce

a report on DU along with other "weapons of mass destruction or with

indiscriminate effect" incompatible with international humanitarian or

human rights law. The battlefields where DU weaponry has been used remain

contaminated, risking long-term and widespread environmental damage as well

as the health of civilians and future generations. It appears that the

battlefields and the people of the Balkans will not be spared this fate."

http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1999/07/990712-for.htm

"[...] Nicholas Arons: Tell us about depleted uranium. It has been used in Iraq and

Kosovo. There is speculation that it relates to high increases in cancer rates.

Scott Ritter: I just do not have the data. I know we used DU extensively.

The former Attorney General Ramsey Clark has called the US war criminals for

using depleted uranium. There is a lot of speculation. People go in and say

that the background radiation already in Iraq is higher than what would be

caused by depleted uranium. Others say the cancer rates have shot up after

the Gulf War. That could be depleted uranium, or it could be the fact that

oil refineries were bombed and people consumed lots of carcinogenic

chemicals, or that the water table has been polluted. The environment of

life is drastically different than before the Gulf War. It’s like Gulf War

syndrome: is it only depleted uranium or is it other things too. No one

knows. It is there. Is it a combination of a sand flees, stress, tension,

and depleted uranium? We do not know the answers.

In my opinion there is a problem in southern Iraq, no one can deny that

there is a problem. The question is what caused this and what can we do

about it? I am not jumping on the depleted uranium bandwagon since I do not

have enough data to make those linkages. No one has enough data. We are not

going to help the deformed children until the sanctions are lifted.

I am not absolving ourselves of responsibility. There is a moral

responsibility for the consequences of war. When we get into a war we have

to think long-term. It is more than putting troops on the ground and winning

a political dispute. We need forward thinking policies."

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by urefinger:

flamingknives : im not fully sure what you mean by what you said. are you saying that the effect of HESH rounds is not affected by the spin that rifling puts on them whereas a spin on a AP round well degrade its effectivness :confused:

APFSDS works better out of a smooth bore gun. If it spins (as when fired from a rifled barrel), the dart is more accurate but it is less effective on the armour. A simple analogy: If you hit a nail with a hammer (smooth bore) against a thin metal plate it will penetrate where it hits. If you use an electric drill (rifled bore), there is a chance that the drill bit will skid around and not necessarily drill the hole where you wanted it to.

HESH doesn’t care about rifling (apart from the improved accuracy) because the lump of explosive will mould itself on the armour whether the projectile is spinning or not.

ps - it does indeed appear that many modern MBT's have smooth bore guns...why? doesn't that degrade the accuracy horribly? and if not, why not? furthermore, why does the brittish challenger two still have a rifled main gun?

The argument goes back to the days of the British L7 105mm and earlier. For a given calibre, rifled barrels were more accurate (longer engagement ranges) than smooth bore. Rifled bore barrels are more accurate but every round wears the rifling a little until you need to replace the barrel. In Aust we use the term Equivalent Full Charge (EFC). Every nature (type of ammo) has an EFC rating (APDS Prac - 0.7 EFC, HESH 1.0 EFC, APDS Service - 1.1, etc.). After so many EFC’s the RAEME (mechanics) need to check the gun. After so many checks the tank needs a barrel change.

If you mount a big enough gun (say 120mm) and your gun control systems are smart enough to correct for it, the difference between rifled and smooth bore becomes very small.

Also if your doctrine says you will only fire natures that are optimised for smooth bore, then you don’t need rifling any more.

[SirReal]

I believe that the current US leadership did, in fact, plan for the long term both in regards to Gulf War One and Two.

I just don't think they gave a sh-t about the people that lives there.

[Lumbergh]

Originally posted by urefinger:

although sitting around in a tank that full of radioactive dust probably isnt that good for your health i doubt - unless you were in there for a long time - it would kill you, the reason the UN made such a big fuss about tanks that were shot with this ammo would probably becuase they want to be SEEN to be doing it because people have an irrational fear of radiation. a simple "kids - dont play on this tank" sign would probably do (if kids ever payed attention to those signs )

I wouldn't be so sure. What about when it rains and you get uranium leeching into the groundwater? Then you have heavy metal contamination of someone's drinking water.

[urefinger]

i think we realy are becoming a bit to side tracked by this whole uranium deal > but even if it were to leach into the ground the concentrations when it spread out would be small enough for the body to tackle. I'm not pro-american (hell, the USA is the only country to ever use nuclear weapons on another and one of a very small group that has used both chemical and bilogical weapons as well) but i seriosuly doubt that depleted uranium is the cause of the cancer explosion in iraq, people drinking fetid water thick with oil from destroyed refineries and pumps seems more likely to me.]

has anyone got videos of hesh being tested on armour (ive got one of a APFSDS leaving a barrel and of it pentrating) or any other video's of rounds being fired/striking their targets?

BTW - just noted that many APC's fire HESH as their primary anti armour round, any clues?

BTW!!! - just noted that M60a3 (general dynamics) fires APFSDS, APDS, HEAT AND HESH rounds - HESH must hold SOME advantage otherwise why give it them?

[ July 13, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: urefinger ]

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by urefinger:

BTW!!! - just noted that M60a3 (general dynamics) fires APFSDS, APDS, HEAT AND HESH rounds - HESH must hold SOME advantage otherwise why give it them?

I think the M60a3 mounted the British L7 105mm that I mentioned before, so its probably listed as a nature used by the weapon. Whether they issued both HEAT and HESH in the one bomb load - I couldn’t tell you.

[urefinger]

ta'

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Would also like to add that NATO has had to do full blown radiological cleanups at every site in Serbia

where DU munitions were used.

That's quite nice but reasonably ineffective.

The rounds themself, as in the big pieces (the darts) are radiating but unless you make a neckchain from them or use them to cut your meals are not a real threat.

The threat is the radiactive dust or gases which develop on impact and can be carried a long way. People inhalating them have the real heal problem since it concentrates in single places inside the body and radiates at the sourrounding organs and other important cells.

By the time the cleanup team arrives they find nothing more than the big pieces that humans don't absorb anyway. In special, anybody intestigating the holes that DU penetrators made (e.g. kids, journalists and other non-selfresponsible lifeforms finding disabled tanks) will have had their dose by that time.

[urefinger]

thats what I thought.