Nebelwerfer-41

[Tim The Enchanter]

Greetings to you all!

I make this topic because I have read that the Nebelwerfer-41 design differed greatly from it's Soviet counter-part in that the German rocket was pulled through the air while the finned Russian rocket was pushed through the air as it's rocket engine was in the back.

The German design had the engine in the front, and the explosives in the rear, so logically speaking, the nose would dive into the ground be it from above or angled, while the explosives would detonate above ground. I believe this should be modeled giving these rockets more airburts in future games if it is not already implemented.

The Russian rockets had the explosives in the nose of the rocket, the surrounding area would be spared the full wrath of the rockets explosive capabilities as the earth would absorb some of the impact and shrapnel.

[Mattias]

Do you have any sources that reaches the same conclusion as you do, or did it just seem to make sense?

It seems to me that there should be a few more factors involved in this than just the placement of the warhead in relation to the front and rear of the rocket...

M.

[Tim The Enchanter]

It not only makes sense, but sources will back up my statement.

For the quickest possible source you could check in the Twentieth Century Artillery Book, I believe it was the 300 of the Worlds Greatest Artillery Pieces one, by Hogg.

I figured it was common knowledge.

[Tim The Enchanter]

Please don't take my intentionaly snooty last sentence seriously.

BTW, I never post about World War Two or the Combat Mission series of games.

[ September 18, 2004, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Tim The Enchanter ]

[Wicky]

Originally posted by Tim The Enchanter:

Please don't take my intentionaly snooty last sentence seriously.

BTW, I never post about World War Two or the Combat Mission series of games.

Then what are doing here on the CM Forums acting like a pillock and being a wind-up merchant?

[Bone_Vulture]

Come to think of it... I've never seen a bare Nebelwerfer rocket. Anyone got pics? :confused:

[c3k]

Gents,

First, common civil manners should preclude us from jumping on a new poster. Please, we're all here because we like this game. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

Secondly, I know what he means. The Soviet Katyusha's appear to have a simple construction. A standard warhead affixed to a rocket base. The rocket base is a cylinder with the exhaust nozzle at the rear. (This is all from my memory of the various photos I've seen. Correct me as needed.)

I have a clear image of a German piece of ordnance which corresponds to his description. I will not call it a Nebelwerfer XX because I don't recall EXACTLY what it was or where I saw the picture. However, it seemed to be on the order of 10-15 cm in diameter, about 40-60 cm in length. It was on a simple wooden case/launcher on the ground. Sounds and looks like a Nebelwerfer. On to the propulsion....

The sequence of photos clearly showed exhaust exiting from the forward third of the body. I seem to recall four tubes (venturi's) spaced equally about the circumference. It would be a simple matter to route the exhaust through a manifold, split it in four, and run the tubes in a manner to correspond with what I saw. So, the exhaust would run along the body (the venturi's were canted slightly away, but mostly parallel to the axis of the shell). Hence, the exhaust would create a bit more of a "pull" than a straight "push" from the extreme rear.

The gist of this is that the Nebelwerfer I've described would have to be a single, highly integrated round incorporating explosive, fuse, propulsion, and aerodynamic controls. As opposed to the Soviet style of apparently attaching a standard round to the top of a propulsion module.

Obviously, either style would need to have the center of gravity ahead of the aerodynamic center to create a high degree of natural stability. (Sorry, no hollow head with a heavy tail.)

All this is from memory. Please post any schematics which would prove/disprove any of the above.

Thanks,

Ken

[Tim The Enchanter]

Well, posting here takes away valuable gammming time, so I simply cannot have that!

If I have any question when the new CMX2 comes out perhaps I will post here, though the FAQ's of forums usually answer all questions or some other poster will have asked the question.

Good Day!

[Richie]

It's a bit like an old western...

The new pilgrim walks into town, fast on the draw with a belly full of whiskey and an itchy trigger finger.

BLaM BlaM BLAM...

...someone always gets shot to hell, even if'n it's for no other reason...

[Tim The Enchanter]

c3k, in response to your post I would like to add that you forgot that the German rocket was spin stabalised. The Russian counter-part was finned, the German rockets were finless, the rocket propulsion system made the rocket spin.

Please feel free to research the topic yourselves as I already have long ago. I was just trying to share some knowledge, not metephoricly see how high of a score I could achieve at a carnival game to impress others.

Well that should do it for me until the release of CMX2 if even then.

Richie, wild west indeed! Ha! But to each their own.

Good day to you Gents!

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Tim The Enchanter:

For the quickest possible source you could check in the Twentieth Century Artillery Book, I believe it was the 300 of the Worlds Greatest Artillery Pieces one, by Hogg.

I figured it was common knowledge.

Not being an expert in the field myself I was not aware that the design of the rocket itself led to them having significantly different characteristics at the moment of detonation. The Russian warhead detonating in the ground, as opposed to above the ground in the case of the German one, and this resulting in them having different characteristics with regards to factors like chock wave and shrapnel distribution. Assuming that is what Hogg's book says.

I for one thought the fuse mounted on both systems was set to detonate the warhead at whatever delay (and thus position in relation to ground level) deemed most effective, rather than letting the physical design of the rocket dictate that.

M.

[Måkjager]

Some old info from a long ago post.

I have been recently reading James Lucas “War on the Eastern Front-1941-1945 - The German Soldier in Russia”. There is a chapter that covers the use of the Nebelwerfer’s (Smoke Projectors ) in Russia and two accounts from the Russian and German perspective.

Below is the first account by a Pole serving with the Russian Army in the spring of 1942.

“Our regiment formed up ina forest and moved out of cover to form the second wave of the attack. We had no special winter camouflage clothing- only the first line was that well equipped and there was a reason for this. it was their task to crawl forward without being seen until the line was within assault distance of the German positions , and then to rush them. we in the second wave , were to consolidate the gains which the 1st line were to make. My battalion began to form line but here and there there were still little groups of men gathered around the officers. They were chiefly HQ personnel, company officers and senior sergeants all getting last minute instructions. We were a young unit but most of us had already seen action and we were not green troops.

There was not much noise. The sound of voices and an occasional shot from a rifle. No artillery fire at all from our side for it was to be a shock assault. Then suddenly as we moved forward away from the trees we heard a whining sound which grew and then we saw smoke trails in the sky. I thought at first that these were markers showing our positions to the Nazi artillery observers but my right had neighbour thought that they were aircraft crashing. The projectiles moved fast but were visible. Two of them exploded about 20m behind our line , 2 about the same distance in front and one each to r left and right immediately in front of us. This number of explosions immediately upon each other was like a 6 gun battery firing salvo. The casualties were slight although the explosions were quite shattering. I noticed that the shell casing peeled back like a banana as it flew through the air after detonating and as i watched it struck and nearly cut in half one of the men marching behind our wave.

We had not taken cover but continued marching and then suddenly we saw sheets of flames coming from behind the German lines , then smoke and then the howling again. This time the mass of smoke and flames roaring towards us seemed to cover the whole battalion front. The whole area in front of us and behind us was blotted out and what seemed to be hundreds of explosion occurred simultaneously. Snow and earth clods were flung up obscuring visibility and then came the cry for medical personnel to help the wounded. Under this first mass bombardment we had gone to ground and thus were a stationary target. within seconds , it seemed of the first flight of missiles exploding the second wave had come down and then a third. after that i lost count - it just seemed as if the whole sky was raining noise and explosives on us. We lay immobile with our senses numbed for what seemed a long time and then my right hand man touched me on the shoulder and pointed towards groups of men who were streaming back towards the woods. we thought that the regiment had been ordered to withdraw and we were rather pleased that we were going to be away from the shelling , but then as we ran we noticed that quite a lot of the men had flung away their guns and were screaming at the top of their voices, throwing off their equipment so that they could run faster. Others had collapsed trembling and were crying or were having spasms like epilepsy.

Even before we had reached the safety of the wood the Nazis had increased the range and had also brought in conventional artillery so that the tree line suddenly disappeared in smoke and explosions catching the poor devils who had gathered there hoping to escape from the shelling. Even when we had penetrated deeper into the woods the smoke trails followed us and their bombs exploding in the tree tops had the effect of air burst shells.

When order had been restored we were sent again to carry out the attack and this time we had barely emerged from the trees when the barrage came down again. The officers were desperate. If the unit did not reach its objective the commanders - in those days anyway - were held responsible and were either summarily executed or arrested , tried and then shot.

At the end of the third attempt we had shrunk to less than half strength and the attack was called off. The 1st wave had penetrated the German line in parts but being without support they had been driven back. Their regiment was very bitter at our cowardice as they called to see it , and their survivors were sent back t rest behind the lines. I was one of a group told to collect the equipment which ad ben left lying on the battlefield and as a former artillery man was interested enough to examine the shell fragments which were lying about. These were very large and it was clear that the purpose of the projectiles was not to produce shrapnel but to create a blast effect. The shallow craters indicated that the projectiles had an instantaneous fuse and the snow around the craters were yellow and black streaked. The pieces of casing which I found showed that the walls of the projectile were thin and the blast effect which i had seen and felt indicated that the explosive charge was quite heavy in relation to the weight of the case.

It was a weapon which broke our regiment inside a quarter of an hour and as i have said before we were not green troops.”

Lucas describes the various type of “Nebelwerfer” that the Germans used during the war starting from the 15 cm Type 41.

Below are the stats

15 cm 41 HE / Smoke

Projector weight 540 kg

Weight of Projectile 34.2 / 35 kg

Range 6900 / 6800m

Thrust (approx.) 2000 kg

speed after burnout 340m/sec

21 cm 42 HE

Projector weight 600 kg

Weight of Projectile 110 kg

Range 8000m

Thrust (approx.) 4000 kg

speed after burnout 340m/sec

28 cm HE

Projector weight 850 kg

Weight of Projectile 83.7 kg

Range 1800m

Thrust (approx.)

speed after burnout 140m/sec

32 cm Incendiary

Projector weight n/a

Weight of Projectile 79.2 kg

Range 2200m

Thrust (approx.) 2000 kg

speed after burnout 130m/sec

30 cm HE

Projector weight 1100 kg

Weight of Projectile 126 kg

Range 6900 / 6800m

Thrust (approx.) 4000 kg

speed after burnout n/a

A 10 cm muzzle loading smoke projecting Nebelwerfer 40 had been used in Poland and France but it was primitive and the germans army sought something better.

The first Nebelwerfer to enter service on the Russian Front was the Nebelwerfer 41 ( entered service May 1941)-15 cm 6 barrelled smooth bore projector mounted on a light split trail carriage that could be easily man handled by its five man crew.

These nebelwerfers were organised into a battery of 6 projectors , giving the battery in total 36 “Mortar” tubes. The bomb was fitted with a highly sensitive contact fuse which when striking home detonated the explosives that were located at the rear of the casing with the front being taken up with the rocket motor. This meant that the bomb exploded some 50-60cm ABOVE ground , leaving only a shallow crater while spreading its casing fragments in a wide area which were more deadly compared to conventional artillery as the successive explosions washed the area. The destructive force of the nebelwerfer was compounded by its rate of fire. According to Lucas and german reports an experienced crew could fire off its 6 bombs in 10 seconds and be ready to launch its next salvo with in another 60 seconds time

The 21 cm Nebelwerfer used the same split trail carriage but had 5 launcher tubes instead of the six found on the 15 cm 41 system.The shell was a reversion of that found in the 15 cm round in that the warhead was located in front of the propulsion system and a delayed action could be enabled for use against fortifications and such like. When the bomb struck it would burrow into the target and then detonate like a land mine. Its initial rate of fire was the same as the Nebelwerfer 15 cm 41 ..but the reload time took 2-3 minutes.

The 15 cm 42 projector was a redesigned launcher mount to be used on the Maultier , Sdkfz 4/1 and other half tracked vehicles. This system had 10 barrels instead of the 6 normally found on the Type 41. They were arranged in 2 rows of 5...one beneath the other. It had a 3 man crew and there were 8 vehicles in a battery...a significant increase in firepower as the battery could deploy 80 barrels compared to the towed batteries 36.

During 1943 the 28/32 cm Nebelwerfer 41 was introduced and this had the ability to fire either the 28 cm HE or 32 cm Incendiary bombs. This system differed from the previous Type 41 launcher in that the bombs were now launched form 2 triple metal cage type racks. This system had developed originally out of a single ground mounted launcher used to fire an incendiary bomb.

The final type was the 30 cm HE Nebelwerfer 42 which again had 2 triple launchers. It could fire either HE or Incendiary bombs up to a range of 7000m.

There was also a mounting know as “Wurfrahmen 40” that could be fitted to the SdKfz 251 HT which consisted of 3 launchers on either side of the half track. These could be used to fire the 28 cm HE or 32 cm Incendiary bombs and were found in the 3.Pioneer Zug of the Pioneer Battalion.

The importance of the Nebelwerfer units to the German Army can be seen from the growth in the numbers deployed form the start of the conflict to 1945.

A total of 100 officers , 332 NCOs and 1612 men made up the strength of the Nebelwerfer units at the beginning of the second world war.

By 1945 this had grown to 5,257 officers , 18,150 NCOs and 112,321 men. During the course of the war there were 20 Brigades of 31 Standard Projector Regiments raised together with with 15 Heavy Projector Regiments , 3 regiments in permanently fixed positions , 4 training and replacement regiments and 25 independent battalions.

These units did sustain heavy losses as they were required to be close to the front line so as to give support to the infantry.

As an example the 51st Regiment which had been one of the first Nebelwerfer regiments to be formed was destroyed 3 times in little over a year. During a 5 month time span between July and December 1943 the 51st Regiment fired 68,344 HE rounds of 15 cm calibre and 8,325 of 21 cm. The targets had been 43 tank groupings , 342 forming up areas , 145 Soviet Infantry assaults and 42 enemy gun positions.

As an indication of the fire power of a Nebelwerfer Brigade comprising of a standard and a heavy regiment ...the brigade commander had on call 384 x 15 cm ( 64 systems ) and 325 x 21 cm ( 65 systems ). German reports speak of such a brigade/regiment being able to bombard a target area with 6 tons of explosives or incendiaries war heads in 5 seconds and to produce this barrage every minute.

A battalion could smother a target area 2000m wide x 100m deep with 108 rockets in 10 seconds...and then the same again with in a minute."

Hope this is of some help.

regards

Måkjager

[Tim The Enchanter]

Well the information on the Nebelwerfer was never in question by me, what was and is though is if this is implemented in any of the games, and if not will it be in the next?

[Bone_Vulture]

I'd wager that no, it isn't implemented.

[Tim The Enchanter]

As far as I could tell it did not apear to be in game as well, but thought I would ask.

Let's hope it's not omitted from the next one!

[Wicky]

Seems to work OK

Nebelwerfer in a sunflower field .mov

[Bone_Vulture]

Somehow I sense that the development team already has a wishlist big as a telephone directory...

[Mr. Tittles]

These units did sustain heavy losses as they were required to be close to the front line so as to give support to the infantry.

As an example the 51st Regiment which had been one of the first Nebelwerfer regiments to be formed was destroyed 3 times in little over a year. During a 5 month time span between July and December 1943 the 51st Regiment fired 68,344 HE rounds of 15 cm calibre and 8,325 of 21 cm. The targets had been 43 tank groupings , 342 forming up areas , 145 Soviet Infantry assaults and 42 enemy gun positions.

The average target gets about 100+ rounds typically. The average missions were 3.8 a day or so. The majority target type is really a non-CM type target. That is, its a forming up area or a tank grouping or a gun position.

They are more akin to airpower than indirect firepower for front line troops.

[ September 26, 2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[K_Tiger]

They are more akin to airpower than indirect firepower for front line troops.

Thats why the Landser called thems "Stuka on feet"...

[Mr. Tittles]

210mm Nb.W. 42 ~1500 produced

150mm Nb.W. 41 ~5800 produced

These were the predominant type it seems. They were probably easily repaired once damaged and could probably still be used with limited damage anyway.