What must i do to make a decent assault/attack?

[Axel]

CM:BB I often play as the germans and i'm pretty good at retreating ( ) and withdrawing and decent at defending but when it comes to an attack i have no clue what to do no difference if im playing against the CPU or a friend my attacks always seem to fall short.. does anyone have a good "attack tactic" to share?

[PFMM]

It depends, but assuming a combined armed assault against prepared defences:

Know the capabilities of his forces and your own.

Have a decent stategy.

find the enemy with reconnaissance.

Assemble your forces in protected ground out of sight of the enemy.

Use artillery and smoke to mask your advance.

Bluff with screening forces.

Move tanks to covered and hull down positions to take out AT guns and tanks. Then use them to supress and outflank his lines and disrupt enemy reserves.

When the time is right, bring your infantry forward moving them forward in small bounds with covering fire and supporting any armour.

Mass for effect, but not so much you present an inviting target.

Get close, less than two hundred meters for tanks and fifty meters for infantry. Closer is always better.

Also search for other threads on this board. There are some worthwhile how to do it's about. Authors JasonC and Walpurgis Night come to mind.

[Cabe Booth]

what he said

[Axel]

thanks people!

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[JasonC]

Fire takes ground.

Attack is the art of positioning enough firepower to bear on chosen points of the enemy, that nobody there can afford to show themselves by firing. Then killing them if they do.

Once the required firepower is in place, somebody moves on the position to trigger enemy firing, or to occupy it if he prefers to live by slinking away quietly.

Occasionally getting enough firepower on the location requires significant portions of the attacking force moving closer to the enemy, to get LOS, increase accuracy or FP level. Do not confuse this with a trigger or occupying force.

The defender may try to stop such movements by fire, of course. He can usually delay them. But if you take time to rally, use cover, the range is still relatively long, use "packet movement" (a few at a time, others rallying), "advance" as the movement type for infantry, etc - then in the end you can get the bulk of your force into range alive. The defender will spend half his ammo just delaying that, without stopping it. He will also show you many of his positions etc.

Just don't try to continue that movement right on top of the enemy prematurely. The point is to bring the firepower into position, not to walk on top of the defenders.

If he doesn't throw his ammo at you during these early moves, OK, you make them unimpeded. If he does, you should have twice the ammo he does when the main firefight is joined. Do not waste your fire at long range before the attack is ready. Do not fire at unlocated enemies or blow everything on smoke, trying to avoid all incoming enemy fire. Take the pain and rally and get close enough to fire.

Firepower is at least twice as effective when the right weapons are used for the right targets. So learn the combined arms counters and use them. Avoid giving perfect match ups to the enemy - if you see he has one set up, back off and try something else.

Here are the four main mistakes newer players make trying to attack in CM.

(1) armor advancing too far, too fast, without knowing the enemy defense. This gives the defender nice flank shots with hidden guns.

Armor needs LOS to the place it intends to kill, right before intending to kill it. Otherwise, it does not want LOS at all. The main edge of a moving platform compared to static guns is the ability to pick firing locations so as to see only the chosen enemy, while not being visible to the entire field.

(2) panicking when infantry takes fire, and firing back with everything available, no matter how inefficiently, is a desparate attempt to make the enemy fire stop.

Area fire at sound is the least effective use of HE possible. Smoke used early doesn't kill anybody, and isn't around to help anymore when the serious firefight happens. Infantry fire at long range (300m plus) into good defender cover just tickles, at best temporarily suppresses. 3 minutes later the enemy is fine and the ammo cannot be recovered. FOs that fire in the first 5 minutes leave the enemy the maximum time to rally from their effects. Mortars and FOs have only a few minutes of ammo each; they must break full units permanently with that fire to carry their weight. Guns have great firepower but are brittle to replies; exposing one soon is reducing the strength of your hand.

A good attack gathers menace, and unleashes it only when it really hurts. A bad one blusters early and makes a lot of noise, then peters out.

(3) rushing with infantry to get through the fire zone as rapidly as possible.

This pushes straggling men, bravest foremost without a lot of help, onto an intact defense of live shooters with adequate ammo. It then gives those defenders shots at close range, and often into open ground as well, as the attackers are frantically moving. Meanwhile, the attackers have little time to rally, multiplying the effect of the defender's fire. And most of all, they have no opportunity to fire, themselves, since everyone is moving every minute, or pinned, or crawling along with both handicaps.

It isn't a race. Slow down. You want an entire company of infantry in cover 100-200 yards from the enemy, not 2 running squads 40m away from him running straight onto him, with the rest strung out over 400 meters of approach march, wherever they first happened to take serious fire.

Listen to the men. By that I mean, if all your morale states are reading OK or alerted and the fatigue states read ready, then push. Push means lots of people moving that minute, using "advance", for a short bound or 50-70m or so. If on the other hand half the men are pinned and several are panicked, and there a many "tired"s, and only a modest number are OK or cautious - then for the love of whosabove don't give new charging orders to all the guys who still have any morale. Breath. Rally. Wait. Crawl to cover. Let the overwatch fires do more of the work. If the range is good, sit and shoot for 2-3 minutes instead of trying to move.

(4) piecemeal everywhere, just feeling the enemy, shallow attacks all on-line.

Pick the places you intend to take. Have an alternate route or fallback plan if that way proves too tough, but don't try to be everywhere. The place you intend to attack, bring *depth*. The first platoon opposite a given enemy is almost sure to be shot to rags. If that is all there is, defender wins. If there are 3 more behind it and arty tanks or heavy weapons supporting them, then you just trade that first platoon for the whole enemy force revealed to mess them up.

Also, defense schemes tend to have coverage. If you attack thinly everywhere, every single defender will be in a decent spot. Yeah you might find an uncovered part - whoopie, since you will have all of 2 squads advancing along it. Meanwhile every defender will get his licks in elsewhere. Doesn't work. You want some of the defenders *out of position* for your attack. You want them forced to move to adapt to it. You want your overwatch stuff with range - tanks, guns, mortars, HMGs - to interfer with such moves. If the enemy has dead ground to move around in, call a slow target wide fire mission (map fire ordered turn 1 if out of LOS) to mess up people who leave their holes.

Wear the enemy out on the chosen parts of the frontage. Deep attacks are relentless attacks. The defenders can hurt the foremost attackers but they can't stop all available cover along the chosen route from being occupied, spitting fire back.

Humans can be another level, because every move does have a counter. But applying the above should allow you to routinely defeat the computer when it is defending and you are attacking. Then move on to humans to learn more.

I hope this helps.

[Redwolf]

Support. Support. Support.

Everywhere where you want to move one of your digital soldiers, go to ground level view, look around and put yourself into his perspective.

Then check two things:

1) how can I use my weapon (whatever it is - rifle, my squad, my tank gun) on the enemy and where do I need to go to do so?

and

2) if I go to that place, who is covering me?

The latter part is absolutely decisive. You should pretty much have your men (or vehicles) refuse to go if there are not covered by somebody else.

For whatever spot in the terrain that looks like it would be bad if an enemy pops up and shoots at you, you must have somebody behind you with his weapon already trimmed to that spot. If not, you refuse to go.

Of course, you use the terrain to minimize the number of such potential trouble spots and hence reduce the amount of support you use. You can also shape the terrain by smoke or by cover so strong that the defender won't open up (a couple of ISU-152 really shape terrain like a glacier).

Everything goes from there.

But one more thing: people often think that the best players have special tricks. That the best players just know more of these aspects, that they have a greater variety of principles to draw from. That is generally rubbish. The players who consistently win do so by applying the very basic and very simple principles in a more consistent manner, they don't derive from them, they don't find themselves with e.g. holes in their cover.

[jtcm]

T-34/76s, with deep HE reserves, can allow you to "pre-plaster" suspected enemy HMG positions: use liberally and see if sound contacts duck.

HMG on your side need careful, thoughtful handling-- for instance to keep spotted enemies pinned while you creep closer

[Vergeltung]

some nice info in this thread. thanks to all who posted.

[Axel]

Yeah that's good info people thanks, i have never used "advance" before damn, JasonC the mistakes that you counted up I pretty much did them all. Anyway when i have some spare time i will put this info to use thanks everyone, oh just one thing german panzers how can you use the eralier panzers (41-42) at maximum effect (panzer ivf is the one i use the most)

[jtcm]

Yes, advance, units within command range, short bounds. At least that's the theory; the problem with this sort of attack is winding down the clock and ammo reserves, ending with both sides showing negligible casualties (3-4 KIA in either column), You've still got to keep pressing your attack home.

[Misereor]

Originally posted by Axel:

Yeah that's good info people thanks, i have never used "advance" before damn, JasonC the mistakes that you counted up I pretty much did them all. Anyway when i have some spare time i will put this info to use thanks everyone, oh just one thing german panzers how can you use the eralier panzers (41-42) at maximum effect (panzer ivf is the one i use the most)

By getting side shots

To simplify the advice of the earlier posters a bit:

To win convincingly, you must "control" the battle. That means keeping the enemy from doing what he wants to do, while doing what you want to do. The tactics mentioned above are merely a means to that end.

Example

Now admittedly, I've played that scenario a couple (<- huge understatement) of times before, and I played against the computer, but the basics are the same as everyone here has been saying. Annihilating the enemy was merely a matter of controlling the battlefield.

edit

Oh yeah, one more thing that hasn't been mentioned.

Don't be afraid to use the arcs commands. Few things are more annoying than losing your King Tiger because it turned it's ass towards an T34/85 in order to take a few potshots at a routing infantry unit.

/edit

[ May 22, 2007, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Misereor ]

[Cuirassier]

I think Misereor is oversimplifying things with the whole "just control the battle and you'll win" dictum. There are some basic tactics or rules a player should know if he is going to use armor effectively, be it German or Soviet.

First of all, it is important to know vehicle specs well. This means know what your armor can kill, and what it can be killed by, at any given range and angle. Since you specified early war German armor, here is the basic rundown:

The mainstay of the German armor force is the czech Pz. 38, the Pz. III and Pz. IV. The Pz. 38 (take the 50mm front models when possible) and the Pz. III are your basic main battle tanks, designed to kill other vehicles. The Pz. IV, though it can kill armor, was designed to destroy soft targets such as infantry, not duel other AFV's.

All German vehicles, even the Pz. II, will dominate the early Soviet light tanks, such as the BT-7 and T-26. Against these vehicles, a player rarely even has to use proper tactics, as the German tanks will readily stomp them. This is because these Soviet tanks have horrible optics, no cupolas or radios, thin armor, often poorly trained crews and the undermodelled 45mm is relatively ineffective, even against German 30mm plate. Against the thicker 50mm plate found on most Pz. III's or czech 38's, its useless.

OTOH, the newer Soviet types of the era, being the T-34 and KV-1, can absolutely dominate German armor.

The KV-1 is practically unkillable. If you must engage it, only do so with many on few, hoping to get a gun damage or just scare the crew out of the tank. Be prepared to lose armor though, and realize you need tremendous odds (5-6 to 1)

Against KV's, a better tactics is to kill them using assymetrical counters, such as the historical 88mm (though the gun is difficult to use in CM due to its immobility), infantry assault (pioneers' demo charges are excellent) or overmodelled aircraft. Unfortunately the standard 'door knocker' PAK's of the era are ineffective.

Probably the best tactic to counter KV's however is to deny battle. The enemy is likely to only have a couple of the beasts at most. Push wherever they *aren't*, and skulk out of LOS if you encounter them, pushing every else.

Against T-34's, Pz. III's with the 50mm and Pz. IV's with the 75mm L24 can engage frontally at short distance. They will need turret hits however to penetrate. The T-34 can kill you at any distance. So have lots of shooters within range if you challenge a T-34 frontally. Again, many on few is vital.

You can also go for the flanks, which will be readily penetrated by both guns. To get flank shots, you will need infantry to spot the enemy armor to get real time info on its facing. Distract the enemy armor if necessary using infantry or other vehicles. Then strink his flank with your armor while he is facing the wrong way. If you have good odds, sit there and shoot it out. If not, shoot and scoot.

Smoke is also another tool that can be used to generate many on fews, by blinding part of the enemies force temporarily while you strike lead elements.

Intel is also vital. Send infantry first. You want to know where his tanks are, especially when facing superior AFV's. This way you can get real time info on their positioning and stalk them with your armor, taking advantage of their wrong facings, distraction by other targets etc. If you can, prevent the enemy from gaining intel on your vehicle locations.

Against enemy AT guns, it is important to stay concentrated and use combined arms. If attacking with an armor heavy force (mech parent), the platoon is your minimum unit of maneuver. This is because generally a full platoon of tanks is needed to outshoot a single PAK along their path. You must avoid PAK fronts by just simply guessing the right route.

Use the terrain, only moving your tanks into LOS of certain 'cells' of terrain, while being out of LOS from the rest. They cover that area while infantry checks it out. If PAK opens up, mortars on overwatch, and/or overwhelming tank fire should silence it. If the infantry find nothing, move on. If the enemy opens up, eat up the position with your HE chuckers (the Pz. IV's are good at this, as are Stugs). A general rule of thumb is don't move your armor if they still have enemy in LOS. Only move when you need targets, and even then only move carefully into LOS to the next piece of terrain you intend to take.

I hope this is useful.

[Axel]

That was useful indeed thank you.

[Misereor]

Originally posted by Cuirassier:

[QB] I think Misereor is oversimplifying things with the whole "just control the battle and you'll win" dictum. There are some basic tactics or rules a player should know if he is going to use armor effectively, be it German or Soviet.

I think you've misinterpreted me somewhat.

There is no "just" about it. Controlling the battle is what distinguishes the master from the apprentice.

Tactics are just that. Tactics. A toolset for accomplishing a given goal.

Not only are people who stick dogmatically to the playbook easy meat once they stop playing against the computer and start facing human opponents. Their knowledge will also be useless in situations where the normal rules don't apply.

It's not enough to know the rules. One must also know when to break them. (Ain't war hell? )

[Cuirassier]

Misereor,

I was simply stating that the general comment, "control the battle" and you'll win probably isn't overly helpful to players trying to learn the game. Sure you will win if you control the battle, making the enemy do everything you want while he can't do the same to you. But how do you consistently do that?

Knowledge of proper combined arms tactics is the foundation that all players need if they are going to be competent. Experience can make players better than competent. But a player that simply tries to follow the generic advice of Sun Tzu or Napoleon without knowing the basics of WWII combat will suck. Plain and simple.

[Misereor]

Knowledge of proper combined arms tactics is the foundation that all players need if they are going to be competent.

Which is why I said "but the basics are the same as everyone here has been saying."

I don't think we disagree.

[JasonC]

You are useless and full of yourself. There, do we agree now? Why are you polluting this useful thread with your jejune self important non-advice?

[Misereor]

Originally posted by JasonC:

You are useless and full of yourself. There, do we agree now? Why are you polluting this useful thread with your jejune self important non-advice?

Whatever dude. Take your medication.

[JasonC]

I'll explain then for the peanut gallery.

Being a rather insecure though conceited person, it pains you to see others giving solid advice to less experienced CM players. Not quite knowing why, you feel some need to interpose yourself between useful comments and people who want those comments, and to pretend to be superior to the advice being given. Without actually having any to give yourself, or any corrections or other actual content to add.

Basically, you wander into a university classroom, see the professors talking and the students learning, stand between them, unzip your fly, and water the classroom floor in between. That is just what the particular barbarian species in question does.

[JasonC]

Now as to the poster's actual question about using Pz IV Fs, Cuirassier covered several aspects of them, but a few amplifications or corrections.

The F models have 50mm fronts which makes them proof against 45mm guns, pretty much. With the earlier E models the turret is thin and you have to be careful even around weak Russian AFVs because of it.

The F is vulnerable to long 76mm, on KVs and T34s as Cuirassier stated, and towed. Because of the risk from towed long 76s, it should be used "keyholed", and infantry must scout ahead for its targets. If heavy guns are found, let mortars handle them etc.

While the F can KO early model T34s with turret hits if the range is short enough, you are not favored in the duel. Hull down is better than up but still not recommended. It is not true that these Russian models are vulnerable from the sides, either.

Yes you can theoretically penetrate a T34 (not a KV) from the side at closer ranges, about like the turret. But in practice, side angle often makes this a marginal shot at best. And if the range is long, it is asking for trouble. You will only get 2-3 shots before it is all front aspect; one of those will be high side angle, minimum. Between needing to hit, penetrate, and kill, this is not a match up you should risk.

If you have to fight a T34 with an early IVF, use shoot and scoot to get off your round and get back out of sight.

Later on you get significant amounts of HC ammo (HEAT). That makes the short 75mm effective against later model T-34s. You just need to hit (low muzzle velocity). Range under 600m is best for that.

The main purpose of a IVF is to destroy enemy infantry and weapon team targets with HE. Use it for only 1 minute, then switch to a new target or continue the fire with MGs only (i.e. answer the use main gun? question with "no"). The tank has the ammo to mess up more than a platoon used this way. MGs will maintain pin levels achieved by the HE.

The best direct HE targets are infantry in buildings, next in trenches. Both are items that other weapons handle poorly.

When HE is low or out, the tank remains quite effective against infantry using just its MGs. When hull up especially, and under 100m range.

Other counters to 1941 Russian heavies that have not been mentioned are -

the 28mm sPzB (squeeze bore). Yes, even that little thing can KO T34s through the turret, out to 600m vs. the earliest models, 400m for slightly better ones. And beyond about 200m, all the Russians will get back is a sound contact (assuming you are in good cover). Even a KV can be holed from with a flat enough side shot that hits the lower hull.

the 105mm howitzer. The HE is adequate from the side or hitting an early model turret. HC if available is deadly to much thicker plates. Decent 4 round per minute ROF and ok accuracy at medium range. They will see you quickly though.

the 150mm sIG. Half the ROF of the previous. But strong enough to KO or immobilize even with near misses from HE. HC will KO KVs with direct hits. The drawback is low survivability once revealed, and slow ROF not getting off many shots if it doesn't last.

37mm Flak. Very high accuracy and ROF. No it can't penetrate a T-34 (shreds 1941 Russian lights though). But it won't need to, it can get gun damage or track hit immobilizations even without penetrating. Remains sound beyond about 900m. (Quad 20mm can fire much closer - 400m - but is less effective vs. serious armor - just won't get damage results).

The German 1941 doctrine has to be that towed guns kill Russian heavies, while tank kill Russian lights and infantry.

[Misereor]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I'll explain then for the peanut gallery.

Being a rather insecure though conceited person, it pains you to see others giving solid advice to less experienced CM players. Not quite knowing why, you feel some need to interpose yourself between useful comments and people who want those comments, and to pretend to be superior to the advice being given. Without actually having any to give yourself, or any corrections or other actual content to add.

Basically, you wander into a university classroom, see the professors talking and the students learning, stand between them, unzip your fly, and water the classroom floor in between. That is just what the particular barbarian species in question does.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you Jason.

I've been to quite enough Internet discussion boards to identify your archetype, and just for the record I don't hold it against you.

Now, did you still have that Ia Drang scenario lying around?

[JasonC]

When you do anything useful for others here, you will merit treatment as a fellow CM enthusiast. Right now you are just the latest new jerk.

[Misereor]

Originally posted by JasonC:

When you do anything useful for others here, you will merit treatment as a fellow CM enthusiast. Right now you are just the latest new jerk.

I guess pettyness is another of your personality flaws.

[JasonC]

Take the hint already, stop talking about me or worse still yourself, and instead do something useful for the rest of the world.