jimcorrigan Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 I've rarely if ever played as the Soviets in CMBB. Every time I play the Reds I'm having a bit of a tough go taking on Tiger Is in urban combat. I'm currently employing T34/85 Model 1944 late tanks - to my dismay they're just bouncing off their turrets at ranges less than 100 meters. I do understand there is a significant difference in the frontal armour on both vehicles. Ironically whenever I've fielded Tigers against these chaps, very often the gun is damaged. Any thoughts on this variation of the T34. Do I have to wait for a lucky hit at odd angles or the rear of the tank or is it hit and miss taking on Tiger Is at or near the front of the tank (at close range)? Are the optics on the T34 really that bad? jim. [ September 15, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: jimcorrigan ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Wow, less than 100m? You should have punched through the Tiger I with the '85. Flank the suckers but if you must engage frontally make sure you have more guns firing vs his. Have some infantry around to button the tanks up. You'll get some precious seconds since it takes longer to acquire targets buttoned up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimcorrigan Posted September 15, 2003 Author Share Posted September 15, 2003 It wasn't my intention to engage the Tiger at first - but he broadsided a platoon at an intersection and I knew if I started retreating he'd just pick them off one at a time. The first tank got nailed but managed to get a shot off - no effect. The second, firing with bow down - same thing, then it got nailed as well. Third tank still engaging - will be decided next round. jim. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 In urban combat, against Tigers, Mr Flamethrower and infantry squads are your friends. Tanks are not. Trash your opponent and humiliate them with the use of tank hunter teams! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Ive noticed this too. The T-34/85 sometimes has trouble ko'ing the Tiger frontally, even at close ranges. Even though technically if you go by the penetration charts the 85mm gun should easily penetrate the Tiger. Out of curiosity, why is it that the frontal armor on the Tiger stronger than it seems? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 A T-34/76 will generally fail to kill a Tiger I regardless of range, aspect, angle, or ammo available. It will cower before it fires, and most rounds will bounce anyway. Only APCR at point blank (aka 100m) with particularly flat side or rear shots has a chance. A T-34/85 on the other hand should kill through any aspect and plate at close range, *except* the turret front. That is modeled as 100mm "reinforced turret front", which is practice usually means something ridiculous like 200mm aka M-1 APFSDS is supposed to bounce. Other than that only high side angle should hurt you, or extreme range (by CMBB standards) from the front. In pratice I find 85mm in CMBB needs close flank shots just to punch through 80mm armor (with occasional partials vs. Tiger I front hulls or Panther front turrets). Is all of the above overmodeling of Tiger Is? Of course. It is German. Any test claiming it cannot be hurt by anything on earth is instantly believed, while any claim to the contrary must amount to an apodictic logical proof to be entertained for 10 minutes. Those are the historical revisionist breaks. What do you do about it as a Russian player in CMBB? (1) Don't play gamey Tiger freaks (2) turn rariety off and buy lots of 57mm ATGs (3) get gamier right back with captured Uber StuGs (with rariety still off, obviously). Other than that, you can try SU-152s at mid war and IS and ISUs late, though low ROF can still kill you. [ September 15, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 JasonC posted: "A T-34/85 on the other hand should kill through any aspect and plate at close range, *except* the turret front. That is modeled as 100mm "reinforced turret front", which is practice usually means something ridiculous like 200mm aka M-1 APFSDS is supposed to bounce. Other than that only high side angle should hurt you, or extreme range (by CMBB standards) from the front. In pratice I find 85mm in CMBB needs close flank shots just to punch through 80mm armor (with occasional partials vs. Tiger I front hulls or Panther front turrets)." Hogwash. Just played a scenario where three regular Tigers lined up against five T34/85 during June 1944 on flat open terrain, after 60 seconds two Tigers penetrated and knocked out on front upper hull hits. Four T34/85 knocked out, one T34/85 penetrated but still kicking. Tiger mantlet, which is what the reinforced turret front refers to, is much thicker than the T34/85 AP penetration (120mm at 100m) during June 1944. Tiger mantlet is 135mm directly around gun, then is 140mm to 150mm thick on the slightly depressed flat areas. Hits on the upper and lower areas, where the thickness varies from 100mm to 125mm, are backed up by a space and then a 100mm plate. Our current penetration figures for 85mm ammo have: AP rounds 142mm at 100m, 135mm at 250m, 125mm at 500m APBC rounds 139mm at 100m, 133mm at 250m, 123mm at 500m CMBB has lower figures for 85mm AP and APBC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 As always, thank you Lorrin for the factual insight! Sincerely, Charl Theron ----------------------------------------------------- </font>Wine donation send to Fuerte for his PBEM HELPER, an excellent tool - it even lets you play 2 PBEM turns per e-mail exhange - if you play more than one PBEM at a time and have a Windows OS</font>Sponsor of the (now infamous) Invitational (Ari Maenpaa)</font>Sponsor of the 2 WineCape Tourneys (Fangorn’s Brazilian customs drank the wine prize up! + KiwiJoe)</font>Sponsor of the Nordic Championships in honor of Nabla (His scoring system revolutionized CM tourney play)</font>Rumblings of War, aka RoW I/II/III and beyond tourney sponsor (Wreck/Ali+Kanonier+Jon_L/~)</font>Grateful donateur to the drinking habits of Battlefront.com (Baldy received the Fat Bastard Chardonnay)</font>Thank You donation send to Manx (He used to run the “sexiest CMBO modsite on the net”)</font>Wine donation send to Boots & Tracks for their scenarios created specifically for RoW tournaments</font>Wine donation send to Gordon Molek for his CMMOS utility (Thereby making the installing of CM mods a breeze)</font>Wine donation send to Andrew Fox for his CM modding work</font>Wine donation send to Keith Miller @ Scenario Depot for his dedication in hosting CM scenarios</font>Sponsor-to-be of Pengville’s “Gamey Bastard” tourney (In honor of Seanachai + Lars for showing an act of kindness to an outerboarder - Well, bribery does pay.)</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 Who is Lorrin ? :confused: I myself have NEVER played with Tigers in CMBB,at least not against humans. I used them a few times for fun vs AI though... Can anybody say that also ? ? Monty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 Originally posted by Monty: Who is Lorrin ? :confused: I myself have NEVER played with Tigers in CMBB,at least not against humans. I used them a few times for fun vs AI though... Can anybody say that also ? ? Monty Rexford's real name is Lorrin Bird. I think Tigers are great, until about late 1943. Once your opponent gets SU-85s (packing tungsten) the fun is over with them except at extreme ranges. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 First rule never fight them head on - but you know that..... I believe in smoke, sharpshooters and manouevre .. yes three of the words in my dictionary [of course they are spelt correctly in there] I see it as a challenge to play against them and win. Of course I do like Valentines IX which are cheap and can plug them from side and rear quite handily. A lot of your chances relate to the terrain and sometimes there is no chance of success - well very slight and then some terrain you would be odds on to win. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 If a T34/85 fights a Tiger head on at 100m, hits on the mantlet will do nothing. Hits on the front lower hull, where the armor is 102mm thick and angled at 24 degrees, will have a so-so penetration probability since the penetration is only a little bit greater than the effective armor resistance. The failures at 100m probably occurred because the hits failed to strike the driver plate (102mm at 10 degrees from vertical), or hit the front lower hull and were unlucky (probably hit a track link which added 5 extra millimeters, just enough to stop the hit). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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