New & refitting Panzer Divisions, TO&E & arrival dates?

[Zalgiris 1410]

I am interested in the early phase of the War on the Eastern Front especially regarding the 2nd & 5th Panzer Divisions, the formation of the 22nd & 23rd Panzer Divisions, the conversion of the Cavalry Division into the 24th Panzer Division and and information about the addition of the Panzer Battlions to the Motorized Divisions. Of cause the SS Divisions also come into this but for a cut off date I'll say Kursk for now. Not sure where this leaves the 25th & 26th Panzer Divisions but obviously would include the short lived 27th Panzer Divisions.

I am interested in the first two (2nd & 5th PzD) with regard to how many Panzers and of what makes they had and received during the period that they were held off the front until their arrival before Typhoon.

I'm aware of the formation of the 22nd & 23rd PzD but I'm not exactly sure about the dates and with what equipment these two arrived at the front with. I know that both arrived in the Spring of 1942, the 22nd in the Crimea in time to smash the Russians perched in the Kerch finger while the 23rd was deployed near Kharkov in the way of and to the surprise of the Russian soon to be devisated May offensive.

I have no detailed exact information about the creation of the 24th, 25th & 26th PzDs nor the virtually still born 27th PzD. I know that part of the 22nd PzD was grafted to form the 27th and that both Divisions were annihilated in the snow outside of Stalingrad and were no long on the German OB by the time that the Kessel had been surrendered. On top of that I would also like to know when the 14th, 16th & 24th PzDs started to be reconstituted with hardware especially with actual Panzers and other AFV such as Panzerjagars & Stugs.

While that's all that I would also like to know about the rebuilding of the 6th PzD since having still been equipt with T-35 until they were all finally lost during Typhoon or during the retreat from infront of Moscow through the town of Klin etc. AIUI the 6th PzD was withdrawn at some point and returned to the Russian Front directly fron France by rail arriving at Kotelnikovo to rescue the 6th Army in Stalingrad. All the same I don't know exactly with what and how many Panzers all up the 6th PzD was equipt with even though I know for sure that it had a large number of PzIVGs.

Also relavent to this time period is the 10th PzD and how it was rebuilt before it was sent to Tunisia and the HD Parachute PzD all up, not just the portion sent to NA, but also how that part that was lost was rebuilt.

Finally, were there any other PzDs taken away from the Front and refitted? When, and what were they refitted with and when exactly did they return to the operational theatre?

I have information on what Regiments each Panzer Division had etc, but I don't know what equipment that they had or received while rebuilding or even at the front. Any info or direction to sites would be really very much appreciated.

For some idea of the kind of info that I am interested in I'll give the board an example of the trouble that one can run into without this kind of detail. I have a book of Panzer Divisional insignia that has history bios on each and every Wehrmacht PzD, thereby excluding HD or the SS. Anyway, eg: specifically for the 5th PzD it mentions only that it was on the Russian Front for most of the War etc, but it doesn't detail with what Panzers it was refitted with and counter-attacked against the storm of Bagration. I have other sources about the destruction of Armee Group Mitte that the 5th PzD was quite strong after having been withdrawn and fairly well refitted just beforehand! It would help to rate things and to understand what is going on in some of my reading etc.

PS I know that the 26th PzD spent most of its time in Italy, thank you very much!

[ July 27, 2006, 04:19 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Andreas]

5.PD (in German)

When they went to Russia in 41:

55 Panzer II

105 Panzer III

20 Panzer IV

6 Befehlspanzer

Appears they had two battalions during Bagration, one each Panther and Panzer IV. They were also working with a sPzAbt. This would put it on a par with the combat power of a tank corps, roughly.

2. PD (in German)

No idea about the equipment in 41, but a very illustrious name of regimental commanders, two of which were to become Army Group commanders (Harpe and Balck) during their wartime careers. Also well known is Oberst von Thoma. Interesting tidbit, the ships with the equipment of the Panzer regiment were sunk in May 41, so they had to be completely re-equipped.

At the start of Fall Blau, the following tanks were present:

22 Panzer II

33 Panzer 38t

20 Panzer III

5 Panzer IV

2 Panzerbefehlswagen

Obsolete, is the word that comes to mind.

All the best

Andreas

[Zalgiris 1410]

That's something of a start Andreas, thanks. I'm assuming that the T-38s in the 2nd PzD for the mid 1942 are at least Es or Gs of cause, not that it makes much difference really IME in CM terms. Hope their Pz IIIs are Specials to make up for all those obsolete Czech Panzers, I doubt it but how am I gonna know for sure?

[JasonC]

No way, those would be short 50s, early J model at the best, and the IVs would also be shorts, probably E maybe F1. It is a vintage, you can tell. The strength and the rest of the mix says "arrived with the 1941 fleet mix and evaporated slowly".

[JasonC]

On the 24th Panzer, it was formed in late 1941 by converting the 1st cavalry division, but was still training or moving up in reserve before Fall Blau.

That was its first engagement as a panzer division, starting in July 1941. It served with 48 panzer corps. In August it drove to the Don, in September it was briefly assigned to 4th Panzer army. It was then assigned to 6th army and remained with it for the duration.

It fought in the Stalingrad fight, initially for the northern part of the city. It was reduced to a cadre already by the time of Uranus in November, but was still sent west to hold open the lines of communication to the rest of AG south. It failed in that, after colliding with Russian tank forces from 3rd Guards Tank Army west of Stalingrad.

The vehicle mix would be 1942 vintage, meaning mostly Panzer III longs and some short 75 IVs, some IV specials perhaps. Also long 75s on Marders. Basically the last time they would have received new tanks en masse would be mid summer 1942 for Fall Blau. They might get a few replacement shipments after that during the early Stalingrad period. The organization was a panzer regiment of 3 battalions, 4 schutzen battalions in a brigade 2 by 2, a weakish artillery regiment of 2 battalions, plus one each motorcycle/recce, panzerjaeger, pioneer.

The division was pocketed in Stalingrad and destroyed there basically to a man. The division number was kept, but there wasn't any cadre t speak of (maybe some wounded carried out of the pocket etc). A new 24th PD was reformed in France in 1943, around a cadre from the 891 Panzergrenadier regiment. It was forming then training then in theater reserve in Italy, before shipping east late in 1943. The new version saw first action in November 1943 in defensive fighting in AG south. Outside of your date range, really.

But that equipment stuff is guesswork. There is a definitive source, a unit history called "Death of the Leaping Horseman", which is considered one of the best histories of the Stalingrad fighting. I don't have it, but reviews say it includes a detailed breakdown of available equipment remaining, through the narrative. PS George Mc may have a copy - he's made a scenario based on stuff from it, at any rate.

[ July 27, 2006, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Zalgiris 1410]

Thanks very much Jason, the 24th PzD is of keen interest to me especially including the return of it to the Front after my Kursk cut off date. I think I'll expand my scope out to D-Day or even as wide as Spring Awakening, why the hell not, but short of those fabricated last ditch conglomerations, hopefully.

I have of course heard of the book "Death of the Leaping Horseman", it sounds interesting. I wouldn't mind hearing a reveiw or two of it. It is probably about time that I get myself some more books on my most favourite subject. :cool:

Jason your assessment of the equiptment of the 2nd PzD in 1942 seems right when thinking about it and those T-38s would have to have been Es at the best for sure, but that's just it we have to assume. I don't want to be wrong and make an ass out of u & me though!

[ July 29, 2006, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[George MC]

Hi Guys

Saw you all mentioning "Death of a Leaping Horseman". I've a copy and it is well wortht he outlay if you have an interest in this period of the 24th Panzers comabt history (the book covers a time period from 12th August to the 20th November 1942 and is a day by day account of the fighting it was involved in down to at times squad level. It has detailed maps of Stalingard including Luftwaffe aerial photos. A veritable goldmine. The accounts are based on regimental histories, divisonal newsletter, personal diaries, interviews with veterans and the 24 panzer war diaries.

It is truly a labour of love but it has had a limited print run due to it being such a specialised subject - hence it is rather expensive. If anyone has any queries regarding the 24th Panzer Divs actions/OOB etc in this time period I'd be happy to answer them using the book as a source. My email is in my profile.

Cheers fur noo

George

[Zalgiris 1410]

OK thanx George Mc, I know a bookplace that will get it in for me if a copy is around. Thanks very much for the invite. If I can't get it I'll mail you down the track to be sure. Just a few questions at this stage on 24PzD for the period if you don't mind, no rush though.

Was this its first action as a PzD (from the 12 of Aug'42) and if so does it give a TO&E at least for its arrival back in theatre regarding the numbers and actual types of Panzers, other AFVs, artillery pieces and ATGs in it at either date? Secondly, does it detail any reinforcements or replacements of such equipment during the battle? (Well lets face it, up until the morning of the 23rd of Nov'42! :eek: )

[Andreas]

You're in luck. The book was sold out, but is now available again.

http://www.leapinghorseman.com/

All the best

Andreas

[painfbat]

Two books, in German, that might be to your interest:

1) Die 24. Panzer-Division vormals 1. Kavallerie-Division, Dr. F.M. v. Senger u. Etterlin jr.

(I have the 1962 but there is a new print), and

2) Ritter, Reiter, Russen, Hans-Ludwig von Stockhausen.

From 24 Pz page 67:

Die neugliederung der Division

===============================

24 PD was to be a 1942 type PzDiv.

Reiterregiment 2 and 21 from 1 Kav formed the 24 Panzerregiment.

24PzReg. had 3 Abteilungen, 4 Schwadronen each.

4,8 and 12 Schwadron were the heavy Schwadronen with PzKpfw. IV.

Most of these PzKpfw. had the long KwK. L/48.

The other Schwadronen(1,2,/5,6/9,10) got the PzKpfw.III with 5cm KwK, and some the long L/60.

3,7 and 11 Schwadron didn't get any and were used for reserve-personal.

Then we have the Schützenregiment 26.

This one had 2 Abteilungen and 1 heavy IG-schwadron.

I/26 1, 2 and 3 Schwadron had mSPW,

II/26 was not armoured and had only the Kfz.70-gruppenfahrzeug.

Schützenregiment 21 had the same Gliederung but no armoured vehicles.

Kradschützenabteilung 4

1 Panzerspähschwadron(Rad)

2 PzAufklSchwdr.(light.SPW)

3 & 4 KradschützenSchwadr.

5 schw.Schwadron (Pioneer, Pak, light IG-zug)

PzPioBtl 40 and Pz Nachrichten Abt.86 were partly armoered, Pz'JägerAbteilung 40 had 5 cm Pak(mot Z). PzArtRgt. 89 in 1943 had no Selbstfahrlafetten, but plenty Panzerbeobachtungswagen.

2./K 4 with its 37 light SPW enforced I/26 so this abteilung had 3 complete schützenschwadronen with SPW.

Heeres FlakArtAbt. 283 with 8,8cm FlakBttr was put under command of the 24PzDiv and later became the IV Abteilung in PzArtRegt. 89

And this link:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/24PD.htm

http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/divisional_strength/divisional_strength.htm

There used to be a nearly complete list of who in witch unit was a panzercommander but I can't find it at the site of L horseman, and not on my computer. Ischould have it some were printed, if you want it let me know and I'll do a search.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Don't trouble yourself too much farther Paintball, but thank you very much about the info on the 24th PzD, and thanks for the linkies.

I especially liked the OoB of the Divisions trapped in Stalingrad for the 28th of December 1942, I hadn't seen that before, thanks. :cool:

I am farly well aware of the deteriating state of the German Divisions fighting on the Russian Front was in a general sense and how they were dissolved quite similarly to the run down shows of the Divisions in Stalingrad. Most looked quite similar if not worse, certainly they did as the war went on for sure.

What I'm interested in specifically is how the re-equiptment of new and refitting Panzer Divisions went in terms of Panzers and other hard hitting hardware, at the expense of reinforcing the Divisions at the Front. That is I think will help me to gage the real fighting strength of PzDs, for example understanding the differrences in strength between the refurbish 6th PzD and the rest of the PzDs battling outside of the Stalingrad Kessel, etc.

[ July 31, 2006, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]