Snow Leopard Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I tried check in search in websites but most links already dead as still searching. I wonder maybe some of you historic expert may able help us by give us information what Soviet airborne can airdrop/glide heavy weapons for assult. I also post same message in Scenario forum to see if anyone can help us too. Thank you for read and answer my question for everyone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 That raises a question: I've never read of any signicant Soviet airborne operations during WW2. Germans and the western Commonwealth allies had their historical paratrooper operations in western Europe, but what about Russia? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 Soviet did it, I saw in book but it was battle map with graphic show marking where Soviet airdrop their airborne troops behind German troop. It was long time ago. We better look for more information and date of that campaign. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Not a direct answer to your question, but how about this for starters: http://www.merriam-press.com/mono_025/m008-ex.htm or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0788160826/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/104-8147785-4161506?v=glance Should get you going. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 There were two major operational drops, one in the battle for Moscow and the other at the Dnepr bend. Both were expensive failures. They fought successfully as ordinary infantry at the front. They were also used for smaller scale airdrops and commando style raids, and to reinforce partisans (who were the real force the Russians had access to, working in the German rear). Here are some details off a website on the history of airborne ops - "an entire Soviet Airborne corps was dropped into the army group's rear, near the town of Vyaz'ma, to aid in the encirclement and destruction of the enemy. The operational use of the Airborne forces was a bold attempt to follow the prewar prescription for success, offensive deep battle. Unfortunately for the Soviets, the Airborne operation failed for several reasons and of the 14,000 men who jumped into Vyaz'ma only 4,000 survived the ordeal...The lack of artillery and heavy weapons substantially diminished the Airborne force's striking power." "The Soviets conducted their second and final operational level Airborne assault of the war in September 1943 during the Soviet advance to the Dnepr River. Three Airborne Brigades were ordered to secure a bridgehead over the Dnepr River, south of Kiev, to support the Soviets' crossing of the Dnepr in pursuit of the withdrawing Germans. This operation failed for many of the same reasons the Vyaz'ma operation failed. However, the most significant flaw in the operation was in the Soviets' estimate of the German opposition. While reconnaissance of the objective area three days prior to the operation revealed very little German activity, on the day of the airdrop the Airborne force was met by almost five German Divisions. Of the 4,575 men that jumped, over 60% were lost... It is understandable that the Dnepr operation was the Soviets' last major Airborne operation." "the Soviets still used occasional tactical assaults, particularly diversionary airdrops, because those types of Airborne missions had proved successful earlier in the war. Throughout the war, the Soviets used tactical and special purpose Airborne forces for the following missions: to divert the enemy's attention away from the planned main attack, too disrupt the enemy's withdrawal, to block key enemy supply and/or communications routes, to secure airfields forward of a main assault for follow on airland forces, to reinforce encircled forces, to secure key industrial, military and strategic points forward of exploitation forces, and to raid key enemy facilities such as communication centers or airfields. These operations, generally quite successful, rarely exceeded 500 men in strength and were normally conducted within 100 kilometers of the front lines." As for the heavy weapons they'd have, 82mm mortars would probably be about it. In their TOEs they might have had infantry guns, 45mm ATGs, or mountain gun model 76mms - but I doubt they actually dropped even with those, since most of the operations were battalion sized or less. In the first of the larger ones (above) the snow was 3 feet deep on the ground at the time of the operation. Not very conducive to hauling around even light cannons without any transport. The second was organized at the brigade level only. I think it was basically dropping infantry battalions in the enemy rear, with battalion level infantry heavy weapons, nothing more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 What is most interesting to me about the Soviet airborne is the fact that, despite wartime failures, they persisted postwar in building up a force of paratroops that at one time numbered at least seven divisions. What's more, they developed armored support and assault vehicles specifically tailored for the airborne forces, then they fielded these vehicles in large quantities. It's unclear as to how many of those seven divisions could have been dropped at any one time by Soviet air transport resources, but the mere existance of such a rapidly deployable and potent force was cause of a lot of concern with NATO planners. The only clear solution to the threat was to ensure that the West maintained a sufficient level of air superiority that would make the massing of such transport fleets prohibitably expensive. We know that the Soviets did employ airborne forces successfully in the original takeover of Afghanistan in the opening stages of their intervention. We can surmise that the Soviets understood that these large airborne forces were best employed at the beginning of a conflict, where shock and surprise would enable the transports to make their drops with little opposition. It makes an interesting contrast to the US doctrine and use of airborne post-war, where the units were seen as rapid reaction forces, typically to be used in response to threats from the real or potential enemy...whereas the Soviets apparently saw these forces as part of an aggressive doctrine of seizing and keeping the initiative. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC Baxter Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 In 1940 Soviet airborne brigades had as part of the Airlanding Group 9x82mm mortars, a Mountain(?) battery of 4x76mm mountain guns and an Anti-Tank battery of 4x45mm AT guns, and an Air defence company of 12 heavy anti-aircraft mgs. The TOE of the brigade also indicates a Tank company of 11xT-38s or T-40s light tanks. In March-April 1941 the TOE for airborne brigades was changed. The number of mortars was dropped to 6. The number of field guns was upped to 6 and the number of AT guns increased to 12 with these now operating under as Brigade Artillery. Throughout the war these numbers were steadily increased so that by 1943 for instance, each para battalion had an organic mortar company of 6 82mm mortars. Source: The Red Army Handbook. P.145-151. Hope this helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 If you want a major course on this topic, replete with 36 maps and an extensive bibliography, please see THE SOVIET AIRBORNE EXPERIENCE, by Lieutenant Colonel David M. Glantz, November 1984. It was put out by the Combat Studies Institute of the U.S. Army Command & General Staff School as Research Survey No. 4. I got mine years ago at the Government Printing Office Bookstore for $10.00. A must for scenario makers and grogs! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by John Kettler: If you want a major course on this topic, replete with 36 maps and an extensive bibliography, please see THE SOVIET AIRBORNE EXPERIENCE, by Lieutenant Colonel David M. Glantz, November 1984. It was put out by the Combat Studies Institute of the U.S. Army Command & General Staff School as Research Survey No. 4. I got mine years ago at the Government Printing Office Bookstore for $10.00. A must for scenario makers and grogs! Regards, John Kettler $10? Not so bad. I agree with you that will be good for scenario maker. I usually aviod buy books online who wrote by non-military. I had see plenty of books wrote inaccrute due to authors have to lie to make money. I usually go to book stores to flip pages. I will check that one you told us. Thank you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 I now suspected after read some of good answers from you guys, I believed that may when Russian ( I mean Soviet in WWII era) caught off guard when German invasion that force to gear production up to produce defensive machine only. I noticed many war machine in pre-war are in sort of offensive machine like high speed tanks. Same with German build "blitz" machine like PZ II and III for offensive mode. One person mention about 3 feet snow, I see his point about difficult move weapon without small "tractor" even I think they don't have much trasport planes as they may busy build most fighter/bombers until they get DC-3 from lend-lease. Yea, in late year both side change their mode of build machine from defensive to offensive as other side change offensive to defensive. Thank you for answer that questions as may help other people too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Snow Leopard, I just checked at www.abe.com Found fifteen copies of THE SOVIET AIRBORNE EXPERIENCE for sale here http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookSearchPL If that doesn't work, just type in the title and hit GO. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Does anyone know how the research survey compares to his book on the Soviet airborne forces, published 10 years later? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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