Uberpanzers

[John Kettler]

Joachim,

If you've followed JasonC's arguments regarding airpower vs. armor at Normandy, the example you cite qualifies as being extremely hyperconservative accounting practice.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Joachim:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bigduke6:

... 11 Tigers actually participated in the attack, according to Soviet records.

...

Combat reports claimed a total 13 Tigers and an undetermined number of other German tanks destroyed in the action. If you look at the accounts there are specific claims of 11 Tigers destroyed by direct fire, one Tiger just abandoned by its crew (it was found empty of ammo), and one Tiger that bogged and got stuck.

13 out of 11 Tigers destroyed. :cool:

Gruß

Joachim </font>

[Joachim]

The mighty Soviet truth is much more truthful than the false propaganda of the Western Allies who claim to have destroyed the same 1 Tiger in 5 incidents each time killing the same crew (including Wittmann himself).

Gruß

Joachim Iwanowitsch

[JasonC]

You think that's propaganda, bah, they are pikers. The Tiger battalion with AG Kempf lost thirty odd Tigers in a matter of days at the opening of the attack, and eventually was reduced to about a platoon of runners working with a single PD. TWOs recorded? All of 2.

[Bigduke6]

Comrades,

If one wants to be accurate with the transliteration from Russian, it's not "Bagration" but "BagratiAn". "ian" is a very typical suffix for an Armenian last name, while "ion" is an absolutely foreign construction in Russian. Leave it to the Capitalists to mix up something that basic.

Of course, English-speakers call Moskva "Moscow", and Muenchen "Munich", so they're par for the course with "Bagration."

*Sniff*

Joachim,

11 Tigers KOed by AP, and 2 more Tigers found later on the battlefield in functional condition, but abandoned. Soviet accounts I have read are very clear on how many Tiger-type vehicles actually wound up in the mitts of the heroic Red Army: 13 of the puppies. I went through the account on Russian Battlefield and from what I could tell Soviet tankers named as actually killing Tigers accounted for 11.

I would take that number with a grain of salt, becase as JasonC and others have taught us, friendly accounts are not the most reliable source of accurate numbers of enemy tank kills.

I tend to believe 13 Tigers captured in various states of disrepar, as that was information apparently obtained in non-combat conditions, and Heaven knows the Soviets tried hard to make the information public.

But past that dead vehicle count, we're still interpeting the historical tea leaves, IMO.

If you like give me an e-mail and I'll send you the RB report, I downloaded it before the English side of the site went phooey, and then you can make your own conclusions.