Red Dog Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 For those who don't know, that was the parachute and glider drop made by the SS 500th para battalion to capture Tito (Yugoslavian partisan leader) in May 1944. Before I go through all the trouble of working on this, has anyone already done this battle? If not, anyone know of a good source of maps for Drvar and the surrounding area? I've tried searching, but all I can find are political maps. I think this will make for a very challenging battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emar Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Red dog I believe I remember a couple of battles made around this one. If I recall correctly one depicted action in taking and holding the drop zones for the SS paratroops. The other one I remember depicted the attempt at capturing Tito. Not sure of the names of either one but I beleive the Dropzone one might have been done by Andreas. Also pretty sure I saw both of them at the depot. Had been kicking around doing another CMBB op in the GP series based on this one myself as the grond contingent was made up of SS Gebirgs but I never got around to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted October 2, 2004 Author Share Posted October 2, 2004 Thanks for the info. I just did a check over at the Scenario Depot and came up with a couple of matches. Though, imho, neither of them are very accurate depictions of Operation Rosselsprung. So I think I'm going to go ahead and work this up myself. Most likely as an operation considering the time delays between the various drops and the arrival of partisan reinforcements. My main problem is I can't seem to find a good map of the area. I'd like to be as accurate as I can. I'll be concentrating on the actions involving the SS 500th Para Battalion up until the point when they were relieved by ground forces. So it souldn't interfere with your work if you decide to do it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emar Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 I have in my collection a decent book by Otto Kumm "Prinz Eugen" which has a battle map of the general area for Rosselsprung(crude map but has force markers for both sides on it) along with 8 or 9 pages of descriptions of the operation "including both SS Gebirgs and SS Fallscirm aspects" along with original orders and reports from the battle. Would be happy to scan them and e-mail to you. If you are interested let me know. Taking the little woman out for the day but could probably get them to you before monday. Let me know Eric 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted October 2, 2004 Author Share Posted October 2, 2004 That would be great, every little bit helps. I can take either email or fax, whichever is best for you. Thanks, Eric eric.young6@comcast.net fax: 413-383-5571 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emar Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 No access to fax machine till Monday and the boss frowns on personal use so just sent you a big e-mail. Probably have more stuff in other books. Hope it helps. Eric 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted October 3, 2004 Author Share Posted October 3, 2004 Thanks for the email. I'm sure it will be of use. I've managed to come up with a satalite photo of Drvar and the surrounding area. I don't think the area has changed that much in the last 60 years (at least not geographicaly...) I also came up with a report of the battle from the partisan point of view. Rather interesting... many of the things said don't match up with the German version. For example, it stated that the SS 500th para battalion jumped with 81mm mortars and 75mm guns, they had plenty of ammo and outgunned and outnumbered the partisans. While other sources state that they had nothing heavier than an MG42 and rifle grenades, were outgunned by the partisans, and had to conserve their ammo. I think I'm more inclined to believe the German version in this case. Besides, it will make for a better battle that way. However, I am finding conflicting accounts of which units were actually involved in the glider landings. I guess nothing worthwhile is ever easy... Apparently there's even been a movie made about this battle. Can't seem to find anything about it in english though, so I'm not sure if it's any good or how accurate it is. Anybody know if Canada still has troops in Bosnia? Durring my research I found that they have (or at least had) a base in Drvar. If anyone knows any Canadian soldiers that were/are there I'd appreciate it if you could try and get me a topographic map of Drvar and the surrounding area. Guess I better get back to my research. This is turning out to be a much bigger project than I had originally thought. But I think it will make for a great CMBB operation if I can get it done right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Check out DZXray at Der Kessel Great CMBB map too 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted October 12, 2004 Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 I need a couple of vict... uh I mean volunteers to help me beta test Operation Rosselsprung. I've made it up as a 10 battle operation. Each battle is 10 turns. The operation starts at dawn, and ends shortly after dawn on the next day (when the SS 500 Para Battalion was relieved by ground forces). It should work well as a two play or Axis player vs Soviet AI. The Germans will have to take their objectives quickly or they'll be overwelmed by the Partisan reinforcements and run out of ammo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painfbat Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Hey Red Dog, being busy making a Holland 1940 scenario I found that the German sources are far from correct.They lie about almost everything, like their losses, strenght, behaviour towards POW. As soon as they got their ass kicked they come up with stories about arty, mines, tanks, I quess the partisan's story are the nearest too the truth. Greatings, Painfbat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by painfbat: Hey Red Dog, being busy making a Holland 1940 scenario I found that the German sources are far from correct.They lie about almost everything, like their losses, strenght, behaviour towards POW. As soon as they got their ass kicked they come up with stories about arty, mines, tanks, I quess the partisan's story are the nearest too the truth. Greatings, Painfbat Haven't done enough research on the topic to say for sure. But in this particular operation I doubt very much that the partisan's report is very accurate. Paratroopers just don't jump with lots of ammo and heavy weapons for one thing. Which is one thing that the partisan report claims... From reading the partisan report you'd think that the Germans dropped a whole division and they were beaten by a company size force of poorly armed, but VERY patriotic, partisans. Communist propaganda at its finest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 I had an opportunity to listen to accounts of the battle retold many times during my primary school history classes and it always boiled down to a single story... heroic officers candidates' school cadets and Tito's bodyguard platoon sacrificed themselves until reinforcements (6th Licka division, IIRC) arrived and forced the German para division/corps (depending on how enthusiastic the storyteller is ) into the local graveyard where they dug in and managed to survive until armoured columns arrived. There is a film, "Desant na Drvar" (1963), not a very popular one even here. I might try to look for topographic maps, but they are still "classified" here, I guess our army never heard of satellite photos Anyway, if you need help with translating local sources I will be more than willing to help! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 There seems to be a nice webiste in Italian about the battle. http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=010113 My Italian is far from perfect, but here is an excerpt: "Gli alianti del Gruppo PANTHER, 11 DFS 230 (dotati di una MG-15 fissa a fianco del pilota, dovettero far uso del paracadute-freno per atterrare in poco spazio. La maggior parte dei mezzi finì a poche centinaia di metri dalla cittadina..." "The Group Panther gliders, 11 DFS 230 (with a MG-15 located beside the pilot), were expected to deploy parachutes in order to land in so restricted space. Most of the drops were made within a few hundred metres from the town..." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 For anyone interested, I found a figurine based on the operation for sale here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Reading the Italian account (it is based on German sources alone - there are many nice photos of 500th SS bn para in action and there is one showing SS paratroopers training with a 75mm recoilless gun), it seems that, as one might have expected, the paratroopers lacked heavy weapons. It also seems that the storming of the main Yugoslav Supreme HQ radio building was particularly bloody... the report says that the defenders fought "to the last man". There is also an interesting note about "hand to hand combat" with a unit including "many young girls which fought with unheard-of fury, following the example set by their comrades". Another interesting note - despite Tito's orders to disperse (since German reinforcements were arriving) "the partisans seemed to be determined to annihilate the entire SS para bn dug in at the cemetery". Result: "200 superstiti ancora in grado di combattere su una forza iniziale di circa 1000 uomini (15 ufficiali, 81 sottufficiali e 896 uomini)" "200 survivors capable of combat duty out of the initial force of 1000 men (15 officers, 81 NCOs and 896 soldiers)" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by Glider: Anyway, if you need help with translating local sources I will be more than willing to help! I did find something that was in a language I didn't recognize... let me see if I can find it again. Would you happen to know how deep and wide the river Unac is, and if there were any bridges over it in the Drvar area? Would you be interested in helping me playtest this operation? I'm pretty sure I've got the basics down right, just may need a little fine tuning. It's defintely a very hard fight from the Axis side. They start off well, but then they quickly start running low on ammo just as the partisans start getting reinforcements. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by Red Dog: Would you happen to know how deep and wide the river Unac is, and if there were any bridges over it in the Drvar area? I only found out that it is 10km long in its totality. Since there are no significant rivers in that area my guess is that it can be classified more as a stream than a river. You have photos of Drvar (including photos of the entire town) and the surrounding area at: Link Try also 'Priroda' and 'Setnja gradom' links. Would you be interested in helping me playtest this operation?By all means 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Yes, there was a bridge accross Unac: http://ww2.boom.ru/Balkans/drvar.html "...Our people had quickly pulled together. The security battalion assumed positions over the cave where comrades Tito, Kardelj and Ivan Milutinoviж had found shelter. From that point, dominating over Unac valley, our soldiers drove enemies back as they tried to cross Unac and to get to the cave. One of the enemy units seized the bridge and along the railway embankment tried to reach the cave. But on the embankment they were awaited by the cadets from the Officers School, who managed to arrive from Љipovljani and drove the Germans across the bridge back to Drvar..." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted October 17, 2004 Author Share Posted October 17, 2004 Glider, Just sent you an email with Operation Rosselsprung attached. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UAV Guy Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Hello, brand new here. I have loads of printed information about the attack on Drvar. I have been there and have seen the ground, have town plans and even have been to Tito's cave. If I can help, please let me know. Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yskonyn Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Now that's what I call a helpful post, I am sure you could help Red Dog, UAV Guy. Red Dog, you asked for playtesters. I am willing to help out in that section if you need it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphus Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Count me in also for playtesting. E-mail me with the scenario and I'll get right to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Red Dog, count me in as a playtester. Years ago I had tried to do this battle for ASL (Advanced Squad Leader). It sucked, just didn't play out well using that system. I'm interested in seeing how you would depict this with the limitations of the CM engine (no gliders or air-dropping capability). Send a copy to bmartuzas@yahoo.com May I also suggest using the good guys at THE PROVING GROUNDS? Great guys with a lot of eager playtesters perusing submissions carefully. Can't hurt. Also, maybe you can try to entice Junk2Drive with coming up with a cool looking SS Fallschirmjaeger Mod for this op. J2D has proven extremely gifted in producing realistic "transplant mods" for his own modded variants of CM (Korea, Japan, and others). That site showing the Bradenburger doll would be a decent model. Ready when you are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 would love to test it for you 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 "a cool looking SS Fallschirmjaeger Mod for this op." SS FJ ? Any links to pics? EDIT Dooh, all over this thread are links. I got confused by the SS FJ or SS para. DavidI seems to be adding collars and such to unis. Ask him first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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