Inferior Tanks: Deer in the headlights?

[Paul AU]

I'm a beginner.

But, in the all-too-frequent scenarios where I (seem) to have inferior tanks to my (A.I.) opponent, it's hard...

Do I really have to spend the whole game trying to sneak my crap-tanks around for a rear shot? (Fat chance, really. Not that there's time).

Really, what do you guys do, in this case?

I mean... they see me, *boom* I'm dead. So, I... slink uselessly about?

[Bone_Vulture]

If you're playing as the Germans, I'd recommend trying to keep your tanks back as infantry support, and try to ambush enemy tanks with the grenade bundles and magnetic mines that your own infantry squads usually have. Although I know that this isn't an easy task unless the terrain is littered with buildings or dense forest.

If you're packing heavy off-board artillery, you could try to score some lucky hits on stationary´vehicles; it's possible that you'll force 'em to throw a tread at least. Could you give a more specific example of your own armor and the tanks you're currently facing? The effective tactics vary dramatically depending on the equipment and date. Weather conditions and the time of day also have a major impact.

[para]

Originally posted by Paul AU:

I'm a beginner.

But, in the all-too-frequent scenarios where I (seem) to have inferior tanks to my (A.I.) opponent, it's hard...

Do I really have to spend the whole game trying to sneak my crap-tanks around for a rear shot? (Fat chance, really. Not that there's time).

Really, what do you guys do, in this case?

I mean... they see me, *boom* I'm dead. So, I... slink uselessly about?

pretty much what happens to me Paul :confused:

although now after several posts on here i'm starting to understand the game more...i have stopped thinking of it as a game and more like a puzzle..i only have the little basic book that came with the game.. but i have ben reading it over and over again..to try and get more of an insight into the intricasies(sp)of cmbb...and the replies to some of my questions by the guys on this forum have been of a huge benfit..

here is what i would do-probably wrong but hey

inferior tanks v superior try to ambush/outnumber with tanks/AT inf or AT guns

also take more time thinking about the terrain/weather & time of year and is it wide open flatish map or is there plenty of places you can hide your tanks/at teams etc..i'm sure someone will put me right if im wrong

[ January 11, 2005, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: para ]

[Bone_Vulture]

Like I said, it all depends on the exact armor models in question, date, and battlefield parameters.

[imported_no_one]

Originally posted by para:

pretty much what happens to me Paul :confused:

although now after several posts on here i'm starting to understand the game more...i have stopped thinking of it as a game and more like a puzzle..i only have the little basic book that came with the game.. but i have ben reading it over and over again..to try and get more of an insight into the intricasies(sp)of cmbb...and the replies to some of my questions by the guys on this forum have been of a huge benfit..

If you havent already,read through all the old archived forum posts dating back to '99.I spent alot of time reading through all of them,and there is a certain "grand overview" that you get by doing it.

The '99 stuff goes all the way back to the old days,where the BFC staff did alot more communication with the forum members.Plus there has been extensive testing done on various "popular" questions about the game(i.e. whether to use your PzIV's hull up or hull down)down through the years...

I guarantee you that if you read through all of them,you will learn something that you didnt know.

[Bonxa]

Go down to view level one or two and really check out that terrain. Start out with rather small scenarios. With proper knowledge of the terrain you should be able to keep you armor out of sight from the enemy tanks. Keeping out of LOS keeps them alive. They might be able to shot up some enemy infantry while "hiding". This hopefully forces the enemy tanks to move and maybe you can then get the drop on them, say a side shot with an ATG or another tank. The key here is to attack the enemy tank when it's occupied and to hit it with many guns from different angles preferably.

Keep in mind that you don't have to play on the enemy's terms. Keep your force alive by staying out of sight (goes for both infantry and tanks) and wait for the bad guys to screw up (both the AI and live opponents tend to do this sooner or later). Use your infantry to probe the enemy positions and force him to commit units. The infantry is much more resilient than tanks really.

Just some thoughts to get you on your way. Keep fighting in inferior tanks and you will get good eventually. Then apply the same tactics when you get good tanks and you'll be a tough opponent.

Drop me an e-mail if you want to do a PBEM sometime and I'll try to analyse your style of fighting.

[para]

Bonxa

anychance of a pbem with me? i'm a noob also...well i have had the game for 2weeks

[murphus]

Hey para,

I'll be happy to pbem with you. I suggest a smallish scenario at first, and I'll be happy to give you hints and tips. Drop me a line -

murphus@wanadoo.es

Cheers

[Moon]

Bonxa wrote:

Start out with rather small scenarios.

That's all right there. Start small, learn the little things first before trying to command battalions. The learning curve flattens, and it's more fun this way, too. It's too easy to forget that CM was initially designed as a platoon to company level (at most) sim. It's still where the roots lie even if CMAK has grown way beyond that.

Martin

[Paul AU]

Thanks, chaps, that's all pretty much as I'd guessed.

Bone_Vulture,

Grenade bundles and magnetic mines? Haven't seen any of my guys get a chance to do that yet. (In fact, being assigned to a tank-hunter team in my unit is practically a death-warrant. )

Could you give a more specific example of your own armor and the tanks you're currently facing?

- Well it was quite a general question, about what seems to be a recurring issue for me. I think it's the same problem whether you've got Russian early armoured cars/MG carriers vs German never-miss 20mm armoured cars vs, early MkIIIs vs scary T34s, T34's vs a Tiger. (I have had the reverse situation, where I had the fat Tiger on a hill, lording it over anything that moved, which was briefly fun, but not interesting after the first kill or two.).

And, in case it matters, I generally alternate between playing as the Germans and Russians, and perhaps unusually, have no preference for either side, emotionally. (Although I have to admit, I'd never heard of some of these early-war Russian tanks).

Para,

…try to ambush/outnumber with tanks/AT inf or AT guns

… well yes, I try….

That's another thing… AT guns don't last long, do they? Even when I "hide" them until they get a good close shot. I think the program should make AT guns harder to spot, even after having fired.

no_one - archived posts - ok, will have a look.

Bonxa,

Go down to view level one or two and really check out that terrain.

Yes, I know. That's where my inferior tanks spend the game hiding - in small folds in the ground. (Which is kind of appropriate, once they're killed there). But, yes, gotta do the "level one" survey - first thing, every game.

That's a big difference between this computer game, and the 6mm table-top games or board games like Squad Leader I've played in the past - on the table, changes in elevation are 100% obvious, and defined precisely, and determining Line Of Sight is simple. In CM, it's (sometimes) mysterious, tricky, and sometimes tedious, checking all those angles. (Yes, realism, I know).

That's on the wish-list for the next CM - a "press this button to have all the tiles in this unit's LOS highlighted" - rather than having to check using the LOS tool.

Moon, yes, I actually prefer smaller games (so far). Large games seem to just be multiplying the situation of a small game, just increasing the time taken to play, without adding much to the "situation" in the scenario.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Paul AU:

Well it was quite a general question, about what seems to be a recurring issue for me. I think it's the same problem whether you've got Russian early armoured cars/MG carriers vs German never-miss 20mm armoured cars vs, early MkIIIs vs scary T34s, T34's vs a Tiger.

Ok, I'll give some advice on these scenarios to serve as example.

Very few German armored cars can withstand Soviet AT rifle shots to the front, and even less to the flanks. The usefulness of the early Soviet vehicles is rather limited, due to their poor armaments. The late war armored cars are fast, small and maneuverable though; can serve as lures to unveil enemy armor.

Don't overestimate the T-34. Before the late models that have radios and possibly cupolas, the tank is slow to respond to changes in orders, and is also rather blind. Use your MG's to force the T-34's to button up, and go for flank shots if you're attacking. In defense, try to ambush the Soviets from an angle at close range: the turret armor of the T-34 is rarely enough.

And when dealing with your own T-34 against a Tiger.. Well.. You have to be sneaky. If the terrain is soggy, try to badger the Tiger into brash maneuvers: the changes are good that it'll bog down. Also, the Tiger has a poor turret turn rate. If you assault the Tiger from multiple angles. you should be able to get one of your tanks to the flank of the big cat. Don't try this unless your tanks are packing some tungsten rounds though; the standard Soviet 76,2mm AP round rarely penetrates the Tiger's hide from any angle.

[annihilate_this_week]

the standard Soviet 76,2mm AP round rarely penetrates the Tiger's hide from any angle.

-- a little off topic. i lack general military knowdledge so, why do US Wolverine's 76mm gun can kill a tiger at any angle but you say the t34's 76mm cant? just because 2 guns are the same caliber doesnt really make then "the same" ?

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Talk'scheap:

-- a little off topic. i lack general military knowdledge so, why do US Wolverine's 76mm gun can kill a tiger at any angle but you say the t34's 76mm cant? just because 2 guns are the same caliber doesnt really make then "the same" ?

Consider yourself enlightened. :cool:

[Bone_Vulture]

Talk'scheap, perhaps I'll be a bit more specific: always take under consideration the /L number after the caliber. It tells the length multiplier of the gun's combustion chamber in relation to the caliber. The higher this number is, the better. Know that the multipliers of guns of vastly different caliber are incomparable by the length ratio.

Well, obviously there's a bundle of other factors that effect the round's penetration stats, like round type (AP, APC, APCBC, etc..), extra / no explosive charge (latter is called a shot), and so on.

Uhhh... The penetration charts are available for both CMBB and CMAK guns in Excel format. Link, somebody?

[Michael Emrys]

Combustion chamber??? Never heard that one applied to a gun before...

But the "L" thing is actually the the ratio of the length of the barrel to its internal diameter. It can get a bit tricky after that though as there are more than one way to measure either of those. So comparisons of various weapons of different nationalities is somewhat inexact, although it's still a good thumbnail guide.

Michael

[ January 18, 2005, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Combustion chamber??? Never heard that one applied to a gun before...

Fine, I thought it was a finer word for "gun barrel".

Either way....

[throwdjohn]

just go to the info and check the speed of the projectile. the faster, the better, which is why tungsten is faster.

[MikeyD]

After spending most of my time playing mid-to-late war (both CMBB and CMAK), last night I decided to throw together a small 1941 QB. I gave the Germans a company of infantry, a platoon of cumbersome captured French tanks, and a couple AT guns towed by trucks. I let the AI pick the Russians. The AI picked mostly T-34s. I never had a chance but I had more fun playing than little scenario than half those 'carefully balanced' Panther vs T34-85 slug-fests.

Remember, 'winning' and 'having fun' are sometimes two entirely different animals.

[Europa]

Originally posted by throwdjohn:

just go to the info and check the speed of the projectile. the faster, the better, which is why tungsten is faster.

better...

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Europa:

better...

Faster.