The unsung Russian tank-hunter: RPGs rock

[JasonC]

Many have had disappointing experiences with early war Russian tank hunters, equipped only with the pathetic molotov cocktail. Even late in the war, a portion of tank hunters purchased will come with nothing better. I for one have underestimated the Russian tank hunter team because of it, preferring to rely on the demo charge equipped Russian pioneer infantry.

Pioneers certainly work and they are the best bet in the early war. But I've been re-examining the tank hunters in the RPG era, and I find them extremely useful, much more so than I remembered from my early experiences with them. I suspect I did not know how to use them well enough when I formed my early impressions, and haven't taken them enough since, to revise my estimate of their effectiveness. Fear of getting stuck with useless molotovs being the decisive factor.

It shouldn't deter me from taking Russian tank hunters, nor the rest of you. Here is what I have found about the critters, in my recent testing.

The RPG becomes available begining in June 1943, and is as common then as it ever gets. From June 1943 onward, the Russian tank hunter is a good buy as a result. But you will want to buy 3 to 6 of them.

35% of TH teams from June 1943 onward have only the molotovs. 40% have a single RPG. The remaining 25% are the best, with 2 to 4 RPGs, mostly 2. If you buy 3 RPGs you are almost sure to get at least one with RPG and can expect 2. If you buy 6, 2 will probably be molotov only, but you can expect most to have RPGs and will probably get at least one team with several. Even if unlucky in the "draw", you should still get several RPG teams.

The RPG has an effective range of 40m, which is quite good for infantry AT, considerably better than the demo charge. It is typically thrown within 12 seconds of targeting, compared to up to 30 seconds for close assault. It virtually always hits. The hit virtually always destroys the vehicle, even the heaviest types, even front aspect. You will sometimes see "immobilized" and worry, but it is probably on the "death clock" already.

This is a performance that exceeds that of even the magnetic mines, and rivals multiple late-war fausts (better hit chance, only slightly less range). The rapid use also makes it possible to throw them from short assaults, even slightly beyond cover. In addition, the 2 man team, while less robust than full pioneer sqiads, is considerably stealthier. Sneak within cover is the right movement to set up a 40m throw.

If you make a habit of taking several of these in any fight after June 1943, the AT ability of the resulting Russian infantry force is dramatically better than it is without them. Sure, you wind up with a couple of basically useless molotov only teams. Consider them dummies and use them as listening posts or scouts. The teams that get RPGs, hold behind full platoons to protect them from German infantry, and use them to dispatch tanks that get too frisky.

[junk2drive]

I'm playing the op Tank Warning and noticed these RPGs for the first time in two years. My first try was at the back door of a wooden MG PB from 12m. One shot, one kill.

[Mad Russian]

When you design a scenario with them you can asign the number of RPG's and when they are in my scenarios the RPG is plentiful. One reason for that is that the Soviets like everybody else used truckloads of captured Panzerfaust's that are not in the game. RPG's represent that just fine.

Then of course there is the Soviet use of the RPG's themselves. Either way my scenario get a large number of them assigned my Soviet Tank Hunter teams.

[Mejsel]

I would say the primary use for those (two out of six) TH-teams without RPGs are basically the same as a short range LMG. Their firepower is comparable with a full german infantry squad at about half the cost. I place them in places where terrain and/or manpower does not justify the deployment full platoons.

In any case they make good point-economy.

Keywords... Deadly and Disposable.

[ December 16, 2005, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: Mejsel ]

[JasonC]

Buying them for point blank firepower does not make sense. You pay twice as much as you do buying SMG platoons, per man. SMG platoons can create 3-4 man teams easily by splitting the squads. The higher FP from the 3rd or 4th is well worth it, and the cost is no higher. No, the reason to take THs is exclusively their pretty reliable access to the very effective RPG.

[Mejsel]

True, not to buy only for their firepower but to make use of those without RPGs. Dont you agree that they are better of with their firepower than by beeing mowed down trying to toss molotovs?

I would agree that smg-platoons are even cheaper per-firepower. However they are used best in larger scale, platoonwise or so. And smg squads hurt to sacrifice. Really.

[JasonC]

I'm perfectly willing to put on half squad OPs from SMG squads, to set small ambushes at street crossings or gaps in a woods route, cover the open near mines or wire, etc.

I agree the molotovs are not what the THs that "draw" nothing better are useful for. I suggested treating them as "dummies" - fake AT positions - listening posts, and scouts. If you take 3-6 as I suggest, you will get 1-2 like that on average, occasionally 1 more. There is no point in buying more for tripwire ambushes though. Just get an SMG platoon, detach and split a squad.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Buying them for point blank firepower does not make sense. You pay twice as much as you do buying SMG platoons, per man.

True, although in small points-value actions the fact that the points come from different budgets may sometimes make a difference.

There is, however, something very satisfactory about not merely knocking out an opponent's Tiger with an RPG thrown by a team hiding in an isolated hut, but also cutting down the Tiger's crew with SMGs when they abandon their vehicle and run for cover to that same hut.

All the best,

John.

[Other Means]

Interesting, I avoided them for the molotovs. I'll have to give them a look. For that matter I'll have to have a BB game.

[juan_gigante]

Whenever I've got that 47 points left over in a QB and don't know what to get, I always just load up on THs.

[SteveS]

It is my favorite Russian unit. I've had more success with the rpg than almost any other infantry AT asset.

I've no doubt its effectiveness is over-modelled but I'd guess this makes up for having CM assume that Russian infantry in 1945 were still running around with petrol filled beer bottles by default.

[slysniper]

I've had more success with the rpg than almost any other infantry AT asset.

I have to agree, they seem overmodeled, I will be using them more. Can anyone direct me to a site that shows and tells about the real weapon it is representing. I found after war types but did not find anything about it during the war.

Help.

Used correctly they seem to almost gareentee death to any tank in the game. Where is some history to back that up.

[JasonC]

The item they represent is called the RPG-43, which is the Russian acronym for anti tank grenade, 1943. Here is a link -

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/rpg43/

Note that the common RPGs today stand for anti-tank grenade-launcher, the launcher part being just a suffix. Not "rocket propelled grenade", which is a loose translation jiggered to fit both item and Russian acronym.

The warhead was 600 grams of TNT, shaped, and could penetrate about 75mm according to that site. (Other sources I've seen say 95mm - which might be a confusion about warhead diameter though - to 100mm). But they were meant to be used in top-attack fashion, and 75mm penetration would certainly be sufficient for any WW II tank if delivered from above. They might also be physically placed (e.g. on the engine deck) like an anti-tank mine, rather than thrown (though the standard fusing is meant for impact). The design is meant to stand upright with the blast cone directed downward.

But 100% accuracy would only come from hand placement, if then, which would be more like 30m range in CM terms. The 40m is meant to reflect that plus throwing - I doubt anyone could throw one of these 40m (which is a good distance for a much lighter, standard hand grenade). 20m is more likely, as an actual thrown distance. Which might plausibly reach to 40m if some of that is meant to reflect movement of men within the unit, close assault fashion - but would give up 100% accuracy doing so.

The items it is closest to in game terms is the German magnetic mine, which is equally deadly for better historical reasons. Much easier to hand-attach too, since it grips any metal surface with 100 pounds of force, while the PRG-43 just sits there - or slides-rolls off if the tank lurches after it is placed. And the panzerwurfmine, which is also modeled as overly accurate and top-attack effective. The Germans did not think much of the wurfmine, suggesting it is rather harder to be accurate with such weapons in real life, than in CM.

The Russians also used other AT devices during the war that are not modeled in CM, though. Above all, lots of captured panzerfausts. And the molotov, while no great shakes historically, was an improvement over native close assault tactics, yet it is modeled in CM so poorly it detracts from Russian AT attack effectiveness. The Russians also used grenade bundles to blow off tracks and such. Every German squad gets one (overmodeled in ability to completely KO), while the Russians get none. So they deserve the break, in all other respects.

[ December 17, 2005, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[slysniper]

Thanks, Jason

Great sight, Plenty of stuff there to learn about.

I knew the Russians had a tank grenade, but knew nothing about it. The German stuff has Ton of of info. you can find but when it comes to other nations, especially Russia, it is more challenging to find.

Anyway thanks for the link and input in game use.

[ December 17, 2005, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: slysniper ]

[Mejsel]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I'm perfectly willing to put on half squad OPs from SMG squads

Ah, well It´s a matter of personal preference I guess. No harm in that. Since I rarely venture above 1000pts the pure-breed smg units generally end up concentrated on other tasks.

Enough of that though. Anyone know if TH can use RPGs on anything but vehicles? I could run a test but asking on the forum is more fun (and I´m in the middle of some very interesting trials on the russian ´eavy arty. Wonderful stuff!).

[Grach]

Jason, the RPG-6 anti-tank grenade which historically appeared early in 1945 was credited with around 100mm of penetration. Perhaps that is the source of the 95mm figure ascribed to the RPG-43?

The earlier anti-tank grenades (pure blast types) are sorely missed. RPG-40 was a specialised device of this nature. RPG-33 and RPG-14/30 were the 'normal' grenade with an added heavy charge, a lash up like the German Geballte Ladung.

[JasonC]

Maybe, or maybe it just reflect the fact that all HEAT penetration stats are completely unreliable, with error bars a third the size of the result itself. Figures for US bazookas range from 60mm to 100mm, for example.

As for missing earlier grenade bundle types, since the close assault ordinary infantry attacks are so overmodeled, I don't think not representing them is that big a deal. The German version is slightly overmodeled it is true, and a more symmetric treatment would be better.

But the real problem is the molotov, and the fact they won't use close assault until all of them are gone. A simple solution for scenario designers is to remove all molotovs. A more realistic solution would be to upgrade their chances of doing significant damage, considerably.

Historically they worked by attacking the engine deck and starting oil or fuel fires within the engine block. The smoke also got in the ventilation system and made it impossible to breath inside the tank. They weren't just gasoline, they were mixed with motor oil and tar to stick and to produce extra smoke. Sometimes a reagent might be added to help them get more oxygen - a few spoonfuls of ordinary flour are sufficient.

They ought to produce some abandoned results, reflecting crew bails from the smoke, some M-kills from engine fires (with it taking another hit or event to cause a bailout), and some tank morale effects, even in the absence of either.

But since we aren't going to see any patches, scenario designers can improve Russian infantry AT (in historical accuracy as well as effect) by removing them. Russian players in QBs just have to work around the molotov limitation. The THs are a solid way to do that from June 1943 on. Before then, use Pioneers with their demo charges. You occasionally get a squad or HQ without molotovs, and splitting can get you molotov-free half squads from squads that start with one. You can think of those as your grenade-bundle teams.