Shosties Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Roughly what was the portion of infantry in the German panzer divisions that rode half-tracks instead of trucks? Did this change significantly during the course of the war and were certain pz. divisions (e.g. Waffen-SS) favored in this respect? Also did the motorized and later-renamed panzer grenadier divisions get any half tracks for troop transport (as opposed to those intended for scouting, support, and weapon-towing)? Given that there weren't enough trucks to go around in the Wehrmacht, I can only imagine the unfullfilled demand for half tracks! :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Usually only one Pz.Gren.battaillon in a Pz.Div. was outfitted with SPWs, this battaillon was called 'armoured'. There were several exceptions to this rule, but IIRC the Panzerlehrdivision was the only german division were all the infantry had SPWs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Originally posted by ParaBellum: Usually only one Pz.Gren.battaillon in a Pz.Div. was outfitted with SPWs, this battaillon was called 'armoured'. There were several exceptions to this rule, but IIRC the Panzerlehrdivision was the only german division were all the infantry had SPWs.Ok, now I got confused. I thought each infantry regiment (in the Pz div) had one SPW battalion? Are you saying that only one of the infantry regiments had one? (Assuming that we are talking about a "normal" Pz div, with one pz regiment and two infantry regiments) Granted it is almost impossible to find a coherent OOB list that would apply to all German Pz divs, especially since most of them changed something at least once a year. [ January 09, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Yes, only one battaillon of the two Pz.gren. Regiments had SPWs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 And even then, halftracks were in short supply often. Even mighty GD did not equip their Fusilier Regiment with enough halftracks for a single battalion until several months after the reformation from motorized infantry to panzergrenadier status. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Yes, but New Zealand isn't a real country, is it? I thought it was just an island experiment in producing sports teams from failed Australians. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 New Zealand is really nothing more than a huge sound stage for the next Speilberg flick. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Amazing, you are completely correct. I see I have to learn how to read these **** German organizational charts *again* (why oh why did they not use normal NATO standard). About these halftracks, I've heard two versions on their use. Some say that they were used as armored trucks (that would mean, they were used to transport the soldiers to and from the battlefield, but generally they tried to stay out of the fighting), but then I've read several accounts stating otherwise. I'm in the middle of researching a Kursk scenario right now, and it would appear from after action reports that it was farily normal to take this SPW battalion, and attach it to one or both panzer abteilungs to create the breakthrough unit, or the tip of the spear. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember reading accounts like that from all periods of the war. Does anyone know which version is right (or if both are right)? Also, the armoured pioneer company in the panzer regiment had SPWs too (assuming I'm reading this Org chart correct)? *edit* I think I found another SPW equipped pioneer unit, the 3rd company in the pioneer battalion...is that correct? (Im looking at/trying to decypher Das Reich at Kursk btw, if anyone is interested) [ January 09, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Yes part of the Pioneers usually rode halftracks to battle. They also usually had several specialized tracks in the company (flame, mortars, etc) to help them with their tasks. The HTs tried to stay out of the way of enemy armor of course but they were expected to provide fire support to their infantry. They didn't just drive them to work and tell them they would come back for them later . As far as I know Lehr was the only division ever to be fully armored. All four of its regiments rode in SPWs. Of course this didn't last long as production couldn't keep up with losses and soon they were just like all the other German units. If you look throughout the war you can find the Germans trying to do just about anything to give their infantry at least a little mobility. For example during the Ardennes Offensive ('44) one of 2nd Panzer's PGD battalions rode bicycles :eek: . [ January 09, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Sgtgoody ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by Sgtgoody: For example during the Ardennes Offensive ('44) one of 2nd Panzer's PGD battalions rode bicycles :eek: .Yeah I think I remember reading something about that. That was a direct order from Hitler to save fuel or something. Both LAH and DR entered the Ardennes with several platoons on bicycles per order from OKH with the intention to save fuel (and oh what fun it must have been to ride on those bikes on the muddy hilly dirt roads of the ardennes). Also Pz div Muncheberg had a complete Panzergrenadier-Regiment on bicycles. [ January 09, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by ParaBellum: Usually only one Pz.Gren.battaillon in a Pz.Div. was outfitted with SPWs, this battaillon was called 'armoured'. There were several exceptions to this rule, but IIRC the Panzerlehrdivision was the only german division were all the infantry had SPWs.actually, i think it gets even 'worse' than that... only the 1st company of the 1st battalion in a panzer infantry regiment had spws... at least in '41... see http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii/011_germany/41_organ_army/_41_org_army.htm for more details notice how 1st panzer has 2 armored infantry battalions... one in each 2-battalion regiment... then 2nd panzer has but the one company... not the 1st of the 1st, but one company nonetheless... then 3rd and 4th panzer have just the 1st company of the '1st battalion' then 5th has the 1st company of the '2nd battalion'... anyway you get the picture... most of the infantry in the panzer divisions were truck-bound... so the '1st of the 1st' is not as hard and fast of a rule as 'one company per division'... the one company per division seems to be the general rule for 1941... does anyone know about liebstandarte or the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th ss divisions in 1941? in the case of the above website the green color coding is not there so it looks like they were all truck-bound in these various 'motorized infantry formations'... anyway... it appears as though 1st panzer division was 'magnificently equipped' with 2 battalions out of 4 of spw infantry in june of 1941... http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_div_pz-01.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 I believe that LAH, DR, and T Divisions all had the lavish alotment of one full battalion and the rest on trucks. Most of the other divisions had to rely on the good old LPC (2 points to anyone who knows what that means). I don't have my reference material handy so I am not completely sure. [ January 09, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Sgtgoody ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 To answer the Kursk question - M. Hofbauer printed some excerpts from the Pz Gren manual IIRC here on the forum. In theory, the troops could ride into action, and even fire from the vehicles, but in practice this was limited to special circumstance, and even then, it was probably almost universal for the troops to dismount to fight - which is why CM doesn't let your troops fire while mounted. In short, my understanding is that halftracks would bring men to within a few hundred metres of enemy positions, then provide cover fire while the infantry got in close. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Exactly right. You are never going to get good infantry to ride into the middle of a firefight in a metal coffin. Distance varies but nearly all armies had and continue to have doctrine that calls for the troops to dismount and fight on foot while the tracks provide fire support. The difference with trucks is that the HT still takes the grunts into tactical range while trucks normally drop them off beyond tactical range and make them walk the rest of the way. IOW with tracks you know that if you are getting out you had better be looking for a fight right away, with trucks you still have a little walking to do before you reach the hot zone. Most armies have experimented with troops fighting while mounted but these are quickly discontinued when it becomes appearant how easy it is to kill a squad crammed into a metal box. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by Sgtgoody: LPC Leather Personnel Carrier Regarding drop off distances: In the desert trucks often (as in, 'more often than not') carried infantry to within 500yds of the enemy. Risky? Absolutely, but significantly less risky than having the PBI simply walk a couple of thousand metres in the open. The trucks would rock up as quickly as practical, drop off the infantry, and retire to the rear. Take that as special case though, since fighting in the desert turned lots of 'norms' upside down. As but one example, in the British and German forces virtually everyone had their 'own' set of wheels, right down to section level trucks. Regards JonS [ January 09, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sgtgoody: LPC Leather Personnel Carrier</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by Sgtgoody: All regular Russian infantry are called Motor-Rifle Regiments. [..] By doctrine all frontline troops are supposed to be BMP mounted while second line troops will get what they can.I see. The Russians regard BTR troops (which is a decent APC rather than a fancy truck) as light troops because they lack the support that the BMP troops have.The BTR is obviously no IFV, but whether or not it is a true APC is a matter of definition. The BTR are is a nice piece of kit, but it lacks real dismount doors (new versions at least have those sidedoors) so it's more an armored truck than a true APC imho. Much of the naming convention is traditional dating back to the Great Patriotic War.Or before that, hence 'rifles' and 'guards' units But the GPW is/was really ingrained in soviet military culture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.