Questions.....

[civdiv]

Ok, here are some of my questions since I've come back to CM after about a year away;

1. If a leader has a increased command range, does that affect his negative affect on nearby units when he breaks? What I mean is, if a HQ has an increase command range modifyer, does that mean that units further away could potentially be broken if the leader breaks?

2. Do routing units see the edge of the map as cover equivelent to, say, rough terrain, for routing purposes? For example, a unit is routing and there is a rough terrain hex 60 meters away and the map edge is 40 meters away. It always seems as if the routing units head straight off the map, but not always. What is the precedence for routing units in terms of terrain to rout to?

3. When are broken, panicked, pinned units rallied, either by themselves, or by HQ units? When does it occur? Is it ongoing, or does it always occur, say, before the player plots his moves? In SL/ASL terms, when does the rally phase take place?

4. When you only have a sound contact, how far can the icon be away from the actual target? And if you want to do area fire for suppressing, do you target the sound contact icon or the most likely nearby terrain?

5. If a weapon jam, when is it repaired? Is there only one attempt per turn? Does the unit attamept to reapair the weapon every time it would normally attempt to fire? Can a jam be repaired while moving? While hiding?

6. In scenario 200 last night, I was targetting the German PAK with everything I could throw at it, just trying to suppress it in time for my tanks to nail it with direct fire. I was hitting it with 50mm mortars (all of which fell like 80 meters short), maxims and ATRs. The little figure of the crew went into the prone, and the gun disapeared (turned into an iron cross icon), and my units stopped firing at it. And then the gun went back into action, nailed one of my tanks, and appeared again? WTF is happening here?

6B. In the above case, I had targetted the PAK with a tank, before the tank had a LOS. I then gave the tank a move order, to take him out of defilade to nail the 'hopefully' suppressed PAK. The tank promptly disregarded my targetting order and started shooting at an infantry squad that was nearby. This was AFTER the tank had LOS to the gun. And the gun then nailed the tank. WTF is happening here?

Those are a few, I'm sure I'll have more.

[mrpwase]

Originally posted by civdiv:

Ok, here are some of my questions since I've come back to CM after about a year away;

1. If a leader has a increased command range, does that affect his negative affect on nearby units when he breaks? What I mean is, if a HQ has an increase command range modifyer, does that mean that units further away could potentially be broken if the leader breaks?

I wasn't aware of a negative impact on troops when their HQ breaks, other than the loss of any benefits conferred by the HQ in command.

2. Do routing units see the edge of the map as cover equivelent to, say, rough terrain, for routing purposes? For example, a unit is routing and there is a rough terrain hex 60 meters away and the map edge is 40 meters away. It always seems as if the routing units head straight off the map, but not always. What is the precedence for routing units in terms of terrain to rout to?

Likewise, I don't think routed troops consider where they're routing - they rout roughly in the direction of the nearest map edge, although they frequently only come to rest in cover.

3. When are broken, panicked, pinned units rallied, either by themselves, or by HQ units? When does it occur? Is it ongoing, or does it always occur, say, before the player plots his moves? In SL/ASL terms, when does the rally phase take place?

Rallying is a constant process (i.e. a certain amount of time, constantly changing according to things like proximity of the enemy and overall morale), and units can rally on their own. I haven't noticed any difference in rallying times if units are in command, unless the HQ has a morale bonus. Can't help you with the SL/ASL thing, I've never played them.

4. When you only have a sound contact, how far can the icon be away from the actual target? And if you want to do area fire for suppressing, do you target the sound contact icon or the most likely nearby terrain?

Sound contact distance from actual unit is affected by things like wind, rain and battle noise (i.e. the more noise being generated around you, the less likely you are to hear the tracks and engine of the Tiger behind that hill). Fire at likely terrain, not the contact.

5. If a weapon jam, when is it repaired? Is there only one attempt per turn? Does the unit attamept to reapair the weapon every time it would normally attempt to fire? Can a jam be repaired while moving? While hiding?

Jam repair is like rallying - ongoing. It depends on the experience of the unit and the type of weapon - it seems some weapons jam more easily than others (Maxims, for example). There are no 'attempts', just a certain time limit before the weapon is fixed. Jams can't be fixed while moving, but I'm not sure about hiding. I'm pretty sure they can be fixed while taking cover though.

6. In scenario 200 last night, I was targetting the German PAK with everything I could throw at it, just trying to suppress it in time for my tanks to nail it with direct fire. I was hitting it with 50mm mortars (all of which fell like 80 meters short), maxims and ATRs. The little figure of the crew went into the prone, and the gun disapeared (turned into an iron cross icon), and my units stopped firing at it. And then the gun went back into action, nailed one of my tanks, and appeared again? WTF is happening here?

Firstly, ATRs aren't very good against guns in my experience.

Secondly, what happened in your example is the gun took cover and your troops lost sight of it. The iron cross (or red star for Soviet troops, or whatever) is a last-seen icon, which denotes where your forces last saw the enemy unit. This is so if you lose sight of an enemy unit you know where it disappeared, and where it still might be (infantry often sneak away though).

What you should try and do (although I'm no expert) is set up overwatch on that gun, and then when it fires again your MGs and mortars can suppress it. The mortars falling 80mm short is a bit strange...are you sure it was as much as 80m?

6B. In the above case, I had targetted the PAK with a tank, before the tank had a LOS. I then gave the tank a move order, to take him out of defilade to nail the 'hopefully' suppressed PAK. The tank promptly disregarded my targetting order and started shooting at an infantry squad that was nearby. This was AFTER the tank had LOS to the gun. And the gun then nailed the tank. WTF is happening here?

If the tank doesn't have LOS to the PAK, and you give the PAK to the tank as a target, the tank will target the PAK for the first few seconds of the turn, then cancel it. It will, however, be more likely to retarget the PAK if it spots it again later (as in the case where the tank moves forward). Note - more likely, not certain. If you want to be sure, give a properly aligned cover arc to the tank that points in the direction of the PAK, plus give the tank a target order to the PAK.

Those are a few, I'm sure I'll have more.

[JasonC]

You already gotten decent answers but I'll add my own. First the global point - this is not squad leader, it does not copy squad leader procedures, there are no phases, etc.

Leader breaks have no effect on units under them, other than no longer getting the benefits of that commander. Again, not squad leader, there is no LL MC. If another HQ can command them (e.g. a company HQ close enough), then it will automatically take over, and you will see red command lines from the new HQ to the subordinates. Any HQ in red morale can't command, and its command lines will be black.

Routing units go whenever they like. Generally they will stop when or if they reach cover. If shot again, however, they will get up and run again. When they get out of LOS they can't get shot again. So out of LOS and in cover, they always stop. Otherwise, they can always keep going, if fired on. Panicked units in decent cover can remain where they are, assuming the fire doesn't knock them to broken or routed.

There are no rout terrain rules, again it is not squad leader. Get all of that stuff out of your head.

Broken units rally continually. Fire drops morale states and it recovers. How long it takes varies, a lot of randomness around a basic fact - the deeper you go, the longer it takes to snap back the next "tier". Thus pinned to shaken takes longer than shaken to alerted, and alerted to OK is the fastest of all. Units that rally out of a red morale state go all the way to "pinned", however, just with a lower and lower probability the deeper they are. They don't have to climb each rung.

The rate is lower when not in command - seriously so - but they will still rally. + morale bonuses from a leader make them rally like units up a quality level - greens like regulars, regulars like veterans, etc. +2 morale leaders mean up 2 quality levels.

Again, there are no phases, this is not squad leader, get it out of your head.

Sound contacts will generally be within 200m of the actual shooter, though it varies with environmental conditions and the unit type. (E.g. a vehicle sound contact is more likely to be within 100m). You are much better off figuring out where the shooter is likely to be than firing at the sound contact icon, which is almost sure to do nothing.

The radius of effect of typical infantry area fire is about 15m vs. men in cover, with minor effects out to 25m, sufficient to make men in the open duck and briefly go to "alerted", and to slow rally somewhat for already pinned units. One way to figure out where a sound contact shooter really is, is to "recon by fire" with high ammo MGs (foot or vehicle). If the shot is close enough you may see the sound contact icon duck, or notice an interrupt in the firing. It is generally a waste to use squad infantry ammo for area fire at sound, however. Only try it with high ammo units.

Jams will be cleared randomly, continuous checks. Frequently a jammed MG will be back in action in 1-2 minutes, but occasionally it will be out longer. They won't try to clear the jam while moving. I haven't tested hiding but I suspect they can't do it then either. The enemy is likely to lose track of them anyway, as their fire ceases, if they are in cover and at longish range. If you like you can hide for the first minute to make sure they lose you - personally I don't bother, expecting the cessation of fire to give me all the extra stealth I'll need.

"I was hitting it with 50mm mortars (all of which fell like 80 meters short)"

Check the maximum range. The smallest mortars are not full board shooters, and the map is reasonably large in that one. While a 50mm set up near the edge of the Russian set up zone will be within range, one back a bit can easily fail to reach all the way. Normally a mortar's shots will be divided roughly into 1/3rds quite short, 1/3rd way long, and about 1/3rd close enough to have some effect. With a weak mortar and excellent cover, though, only the closest hits will do much. If you are shooting at nearly maximum range, the misses will almost all be shorts.

A good general rule is that 2 50mm mortars firing for a couple of minutes can pin - but not break - most teams. A single minute from an 82mm will generally pin and frequently get 1 man and cause panic. At very long range, though, they get less accurate. And trench cover is the hardest to hurt. Trees are the easiest, because some of the shells will burst aloft, with much improved effect.

As for Maxims, at that range they will only put the target at "alerted" on their own. They can still be useful at preventing rally, if better weapons pin the crew. Think HE to pin, MGs just to slow rally. If he isn't pinned yet the MGs aren't going to do very much.

ATRs are worth firing at guns but their chance of getting one with any given round are tiny. The enemy only sees sound back, and they have very high ammo, that is what makes it worth trying anyway.

"The little figure of the crew went into the prone, and the gun disapeared (turned into an iron cross icon), and my units stopped firing at it. And then the gun went back into action"

You pinned them, they went heads down, your men lost sight of them, they rallied back to shaken or better. Pinned units go heads down and will not fire, and will only move on "sneak". They are also harder to spot - though just not firing is the main cause of "harder to spot" in this instance. The way to deal with that is area fire, which does not need a visual spot but keeps firing at the location regardless. An MG on area fire can, for example, maintain the pin.

On the tank targeting, a target command given out of LOS will only matter if LOS to that target is acquired very early in the next turn, otherwise it will be disregarded. The correct way to specify the target you want, is a narrow covered arc. That tells the tank to ignore anything outside the arc, unless it is a lethal threat to the tank itself. You can also use a vehicle covered arc to avoid being distracted by infantry, if the target you want to focus on is an enemy tank.

By using the targeting command without an arc, you effectively told your tankers "shoot the PAK if you see it in the next couple seconds, otherwise shoot whatever looks like the best shot". If instead you used a narrow arc, you'd be saying "shoot only along this pencil, whatever you can see along it", drawn right over the PAK. They would then ignore infantry elsewhere, and target the PAK as soon as they see it.

[civdiv]

mrpwase and jasonc, thanks for your detailed, informative, and timely replies. Jason, sorry for all of the SL/ASL comparison, I am just trying to establish a commonality to quantify the information. Both of your answers go a long way to answer my questions and improve my awareness of how this game models combat. And due to the depth of this game (a la, the Close Combat series), the manual only goes so far to explain the modelling concepts. The strategy guide for CMBB will be a help, if I can find a way to uncorrupt the file. D2D just plain sucks.

Again, thanks for your replies.

[civdiv]

More questions.

1. If you are targetting a unit close to the edge of the map with indirect fire, some of your rounds are bound to land offmap. I can see some of the explosions landing off the playing area. Is the map extended a little bit so rounds that burst off the map but still close to units still have effect?

2. Can engineers hide and still clear minefields and barbed wire and other obstacles? I've had trouble getting them to clear stuff. I'll put them stastionary next to the obstacle, and I know they have demo charges, and there are no friendlies in close proximity, but after 3 or 4 turns I end up moving them forward as it seems they aren't doing anything.

2b. Sometimes when the engineers are sitting next to the obstacle, they take fire and want to crawl to nearby cover. Sometimes they do this despite being in good cover such as in a shellhole. If they start, on there own, to crawl away, and I stop them and cancel their self-imposed movement order before they get more than a yard or two, has that reset the time required for them to clear the obstacle?

3. How does barbed wire affect infantry besides slowing down movement? I would assume it might increase the exertion. But does it adversely affect their own fire? Does it make them more vulnerable to enemy fire?

4. Is it just me or does the AI tend to be pretty inept when it comes to their own off-map artillery? What mistakes does the AI tend to make? Are they smart enough to lead moving infantry formations?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[JasonC]

I've never seen arty that lands off the map hurt units on the map. But I've also never tested for it in detail. I expect them to just be misses and do nothing.

Engineers cannot hide and clear minefields. They can clear daisy chain AT mines without demo charges (those are above ground), and other minefield types if they have demo charges remaining - they will expend one to do so. Nothing clears wire or roadblocks, they are permanent.

To clear mines you want the engineers within DC distance of the field but not actually inside it. The minefield marker is only the centerpoint of the field, which is 20m on a side and square. If you stay 15m to 25m from the field center you will be outside the field and within range. Rule of thumb, be in the "next tile", rather than right on top of it.

It takes about a full minute spent stationary for a full squad, before you will see the throw. It doesn't take 3-4 minutes, if you see that kind of delay something is wrong (e.g. they are in the field, or pinned, or think the DC would hurt friendlies). They have to be good order, not pinned. A half squad or squad that has taken losses will take longer (and only one of the split pair has the DCs necessary). It is generally better to leave engineers united, therefore.

I suspect you were trying to clear wire, not knowing it is impossible - or were too close, actually inside the minefield, and thus the DCs could not the thrown (out of self preservation).

A shellhole is not "good cover", it is only 44%. That is better than being in the open, but "good cover" starts at 25% exposure - scattered trees, rough, wooden buildings. Plain foxholes and shellholes otherwise in the open are sufficient to stop "cover panic" against light fire only. If the unit takes more and starts sneaking, it wants to reach 25% cover or break LOS from the shooter.

Pinned or cover panic engineers are not going to clear anything. They need to be good order for a full minute.

Barbed wire makes the ground where it is present "hazardous movement" regardless of other terrain. This means 100% exposure, considerably worse than open ground (which is 70%). Crossing railroad tracks or a bridge are other cases of hazardous movement. Wire is nastier because the unit is also slow - it takes 1 full minute to cross wire you start right next to, on "move". In addition, they can't even get away by routing.

You should move through wire only when you think there are no shooters to hit you there, and then by "packet movement", meaning one unit at a time, with all others in the area "overwatching" to suppress anyone that fires at the crosser. Units across the wire should hold up, moving only far enough beyond it to make room for the next unit through, until you have accumulated a full platoon or more on the other side. Otherwise you risk piecemeal defeat of the most advanced units while others can't support them, followed by a local counterattack back to the wire.

Units in wire that are shot at are not going to fire back. They will be routed and sneaking. So you must rely on other units to cover the move - hence the "packet movement" drill outlined above.

The AI is quite poor with its off board artillery. It frequently fails to use it at all, or gets the FOs killed making unnecessary movements. When it does fire, it tends to dump a whole module on a modest target, often several minutes after that area was the real focus of action. Even TRPs do not improve its artillery performance very much. It will prep fire if it has LOS to targets on the first turn. Although that would be a waste for humans, it is outperformance for the AI.

As for other AI weaknesses, there are a whole boatload of them. "Stupid AI tricks" is a term that covers them, and the human tactics used to exploit them that only work against it, not against humans. Overall the AI is quite weak, and there is little it actually does well. It can teach you the mechanics, but once you have mastered them you will want to play humans.

A few exceptions. Fights in which the AI has large numbers of superior AFVs can be challenging for the human side. It still makes mistakes. But ubertanks can cover a multitude of them, and humans will typically be put through their paces making the most of limited AT assets. Just having superior armor does not have this effect. There have to be numbers, too (so it uses at least some, reasonably, is harder to bushwack when it stays together, etc). They intimidate human units into holding their fire, which helps the AI's other units too, etc.

The second situation is when the AI is firmly in possession of all the flags and is defending. Particularly when a good human player set them up (default placement in scenarios e.g.), when it has numerous guns and stealthy ranged shooters (MGs, snipers, light flak, mortars).

I won't tell you all the weaknesses it has in all other situations in detail, because they would spoil some of what you can learn from it. When you can regularly smash it with minimal losses, play humans.

[Bannon DC]

Originally posted by civdiv:

6. In scenario 200 last night, I was targetting the German PAK with everything I could throw at it, just trying to suppress it in time for my tanks to nail it with direct fire. I was hitting it with 50mm mortars (all of which fell like 80 meters short), maxims and ATRs. The little figure of the crew went into the prone, and the gun disapeared (turned into an iron cross icon), and my units stopped firing at it. And then the gun went back into action, nailed one of my tanks, and appeared again? WTF is happening here?

A tip for this is to use "area fire" instead of directly targeting the unit when you see it. This situation will happen frequently no matter if it is a crewed weapon or an infantry squad. You will surpress them, lose site of them, and they they will pop back up and shoot at you. To keep that gun down, I would have my infantry directly target it and have MGs and mortars do area targeting. This way they will keep firing at the area when the enemy unit is surpressed... and keep him surpressed.

[Bannon DC]

Originally posted by civdiv:

2. Can engineers hide and still clear minefields and barbed wire and other obstacles? I've had trouble getting them to clear stuff. I'll put them stastionary next to the obstacle, and I know they have demo charges, and there are no friendlies in close proximity, but after 3 or 4 turns I end up moving them forward as it seems they aren't doing anything.

2b. Sometimes when the engineers are sitting next to the obstacle, they take fire and want to crawl to nearby cover. Sometimes they do this despite being in good cover such as in a shellhole. If they start, on there own, to crawl away, and I stop them and cancel their self-imposed movement order before they get more than a yard or two, has that reset the time required for them to clear the obstacle?

3. How does barbed wire affect infantry besides slowing down movement? I would assume it might increase the exertion. But does it adversely affect their own fire? Does it make them more vulnerable to enemy fire?

Be careful in choosing your "good cover." In a recent game, I had engineers in a house because there was a firefight nearby. They were a little too close to the minefield they were clearing and the house came down on top of them when they tossed their satchel charge.

You can also target a mine to be cleared. This is helpful when in a thick minefield. If you are clearing a path, don't leave it to the engineer unit to decide which one to clear. This often results in the engineer actually shooting at the minefield before tossing the satchel... but, hey, that is just CM for you. (This could also draw enemy fire).

Mine clearing is also and automatic reflex for engineers with satchel charges. If you do NOT want them to expend a satchel... don't stop them within 30-40m of a minefield. (If no choice, set them to "hide.")

Always keep in mind that these satchels are have a pretty strong blast. (Maybe equivalent to a 105 shell?). They will damage nearby units such as tanks and infantry. Watch your movement paths for friendlies moving near the area or sitting in nearby houses. In operations, try not to damage or KO "abandoned" tanks that may be stuck near minefields. (Abandoned tanks and guns have a chance of being repaired and returning to action).

Regarding wire -- it does not increase excertion by simply moving through it. However, it takes a long time to move through it, so if you are "advancing", or any of the other movement orders that increase excertion, you will get tired. Similar to moving across a ford or deep mud... if you are going fast, it will tire you out very quickly. Units fired at while stuck in wire will most likely route or take heavy losses. That is why wire is an effective obstacle... but only if enemy units are there to make you pay for going through it.

[ January 31, 2006, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Bannon DC ]

[civdiv]

Jason,

I notice how good the AI is in terms of determining LOS' and such, especially with armor. They will set their tanks up in these little spots where you just can;tget a them. I guess that's just a product of the AI being able to compute every LOS on-the-fly. In the scenario I am playing right now I have a German tank set-up directly behind a tree. I can;t get at him from the front, where my advance is coming from, but he can fire effectively to his left and right, where my neighboring units are. Unfortunately, only my center unit has armored support.

Bannon, I'll trey in the future to tagret the minefields to get my engineers to move quicker.

Is the breakdown on terrain effects in the strategy guide? I couldn't find it in the manual.

[JasonC]

There isn't a good one centralized, that I know of. Here are the most important classes for infantry purposes -

Type I cover. These are the strongest cover types, where dug in defenders should be.

trench - 9% exposure

heavy building - 10% exposure

foxhole in woods or pines - 11% exposure

woods or pines - 14% exposure

plus (special case)

heads down behind a stone wall - 0% exposure (infantry type fire has *no* effect, HE does)

Type II cover. These types are adequate for attackers to sit down in and conduct serious firefights. Defenders can use them for secondary positions. While not nearly as strong as type I, they have no cover panic effects and are close enough to type I for numbers to make up the difference.

foxholes in scattered trees - ~21% exposure

wooden buildings - 25% exposure

scattered trees - 25% exposure

rough - 25% exposure

heads up behind stone wall - 30% exposure

Type III cover, aka "approach cover". Suitable for moving attackers, to reduce incoming while closing the range. Attackers typically advance from patch to patch of this stuff, on their way to type I or II positions. You can firefight from it briefly in a pinch, but long firefights should not be attempted from it against enemies in Type I cover. Voids "cover panic" against weak fire only, strong fire (pinning, panicking strength) can set off "sideways sneaking".

foxholes - 44% exposure

shellholes - 44% exposure

brush - 50% exposure

wheat - 50% exposure

rocky - 50% exposure

cemetary - 50% exposure

Modest cover aides - these aren't a type proper, but are transitional between III and IV. For the most part they act like open ground, but they are marginally better than pure open. As such moving units sometimes need to rely on them, but they are not substitute for real cover. None of these will prevent "cover panic" from any fire beyond the "alerted" stage.

hedge - 60% exposure typically

fence - 60% typically

steppe - 65% typically, can hide at long range if stationary and not firing.

Type IV terrain, aka forms of open ground -

open - 70% exposed

pavement - 70% exposed

soft ground - 70% exposed and slowed movement

marsh - 65-70% exposed and very slow movement

Hazardous movement. Units shot in these are much more vunerable to large scale KIAs.

wire - 100% exposed and glacial movement

RR tracks - 100% exposed

bridge - 100% exposed

None of the exposure figures should be considered exact, because slight obstructions along the line of sight can lower the % exposed a few points. Deeper in trees can be 2-3% better than at the edge because of this, and the like.

There are also specific differences against HE types. % exposure governs the effect of infantry type fire (including MGs, vehicle MGs, etc).

any woods - mortars and indirect artillery more effective due to treebursts/airbursts. Especially true if not in a foxhole.

any building - flat trajectory HE is much more effective, because any round that physically strikes the building encounters reduced cover effects. Also, buildings in danger of collapse from damage will be abandoned.

trenches - very effective against off-map arty because few rounds will physically hit the small trench icon. On map HE, flat trajectory or mortars, that does hit the trench icon will be considerably more effective.

concealment terrain (e.g. brush, wheat) - most of the "cover" this provides is purely visual. HE pretty much ignores its effects. Against an MG, brush is almost as good as a shellhole - but against a mortar barrage the shellhole is far superior.

I hope this helps.

[MPK]

That's a really useful post, JasonC...

Saved me a lot of testing

Those exposure figs will be useful

written on an index card propped on

top of the comp.

As both yourself and BannonDC have

pointed out, it is area fire that

enables one to continue to target

and pin units that have taken cover.

I would add the small observation

that because the Targeting line is

sticky for enemy units, it can be

tricky to target a foxhole (as opposed

to the unit in it)...but experiment

with camera angles, and you will

get the knack.

[Tagwyn]

Jason: You are a treasure!! Thanks. Tag

[civdiv]

Ok, further question, how is sniper resolution handled? I notice they have no firepower factors, just a simple range. Is this really abstracted? How do they handle targte selection? Do they tend to single out HQ units? Is there just a simple chance, based on terrain, that they will cause a casualty every time they fire?

[zmoney]

You can try this web site. He has all sorts of great info on exposure and other things like tanks guns and a bunch of great stuff.

Chris's data base

Just scroll down to near the bottom of the page and you'll see cmx3 tables for cmak and cmx2 for cmbb. Once you have downloaded them open them up and you may not see anything. So click a color from your excel color chart and apply it to the page to be able to read the info.

[JasonC]

On snipers, the main effect is to morale, not men hit. They will pin or break most units they fire at, with every shot. An actual hit is gravy and not terribly common. More likely against a unit with higher exposure and with a higher quality sniper, those are the main factors.

They also shoot at tank commanders that are unbuttoned. Usually they just make them button, but a reasonable percentage of the time they can cap the TC and thereby inflict "shock" (vehicle temporarily stops functioning. A minute later it won't sight as well but can function normally, if it has a full sized crew anyway).

Their favorites targets are - tank commanders, mortars moving in the open, other heavy weapons teams moving in the open, forward observers. Far behind those come HQs, infantry AT teams, and ordinary squads.

It is best not to give them any fire orders nor any covered arc, and just to let them pick their shots. They are much less likely to be detected that way. Stealthy shooting is their biggest strength. To make the most of it, you want the upper half of their range window. 300-400m is great, decent accuracy and essentially no chance of being located when they fire.

Don't try to coordinate their actions with the rest of your force. Just give them a safe spot with wide but long LOS, and leave them alone. Enemy teams will pin at opportune moments. That is their role.

[knalla]

Originally posted by JasonC:

trenches - very effective against off-map arty because few rounds will physically hit the small trench icon. On map HE, flat trajectory or mortars, that does hit the trench icon will be considerably more effective.

I hope this helps.

Will a shell that hits inside a trench be more lethal for the units inside it that at same distance in any other kind of terrain? wouldn't the blast be channeled through the trench killing/wounding more units?

[vincere]

Great info about terrain and exposure.

What do you mean by 'cover panic'?

[JasonC]

No, there is no magnified effect and the trench still provides some protection. But shells that hit in the trench will pin, get a man or two, cause panic etc. Even quite large shells that land outside the trench will have little effect on men in one.

I don't think amplified effect would be realistic, either. A squad or team is a lot of men, not all of them at that exact 2m by 2m location in a human pile. And trenches have dugouts along their length as shelters, angled cuts to localize blasts, etc.

[civdiv]

Thanks Jason, I am cutting sand pasting these into another document.

[JasonC]

"cover panic" is the tendency of infantry shot at in open ground or other weak cover, to void their existing movement or fire orders and change them to a new waypoint where there is better cover - frequently at a rate of "sneak". Which wrecks your plans, eliminates their outgoing firepower, takes forever to get anywhere, and tires them out as well.

If shot at right after stepping into the open, this tac AI override routine can lead to your men coming back into cover. If shot in a narrow stretch of open between two good bodies of cover, it can occasionally lead to them reaching cover safely by the end of the minute - though your existing order almost always would have done a better job. In all other situations, that is about 90% of the time, it is decidedly unwelcome.

The routine basically assumes that anybody shot at in open ground made a mistake. It assumes no one would ever want to cross any stretch of open where they might take fire. This is very far from being true. It also assumes the thing to do if shot at is to solve the problem by moving the unit shot at - which is also rarely true (a better solution is to blow the hell out of the guys doing the shooting).

This is a major issue to contend with in all infantry attacks. The first component of the standard solution is the "advance" movement order, which is more likely to persist when fire is taken. But that only works up to a point - about "shaken" actually. Beyond that point - particularly if the fire gets to "pin" strength - cover panic typically sets in. Sometimes earlier, if the ground they are in is open.

A unit in 25% cover or better is immune to cover panic in this sense.

A unit in the 44%-50% forms of cover, will generally stop sneaking etc upon reaching cover that good. And will be willing to fire back, for example - typically the single most important consideration in these situations. If they continue to take heavy, pinning fire, though, cover panic can set in again, even before they break.

Units in decent cover firefight better not only because they take half as much incoming, but because they are willing to fire back instead of wasting their time running around trying to get away from all the bullets. The only real way to get away from all the bullets is to stand and pull triggers until the guys shooting at you duck. But the tac AI doesn't know that.

That is the "cover panic" issue, in a nutshell.

[JasonC]

Or, more colorfully, "cover panic" is when the player screams at the computer screen "fire back, you idiots!" as his platoon crawls off in four different directions under light MG fire.

[vincere]

Jason C

Thanks, another very grateful CM player.

I'm also going to paste some of this and your advice regarding infanty attacks. (Better stop before sounding like a sychophant)

By the way I did a search and could find any advice on machine gun ranges other than it's probably better to open up at longer ranges. So I was wondering what sort of range would be optimal- ball park figure- for say mg42.

[ February 04, 2006, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: vincere ]

[JasonC]

I generally start firing MG-42s at around 400m. The fp is already high enough to hurt things. And at that distance, I know they will only get a sound contact.

That is one of the biggest considerations for MG firing. How far spots start changes with terrain and who is looking, but they rarely see the shooter exactly beyond 250, and sometimes you will stay sound down to 150.

The other main issue is the ammo supply. While 500m would also pin things, 85 ammo wouldn't really last the whole way in and still leave enough to slug it out with a typical squad, opening up that early. Infantry under pinning fire tends to slow to between 25m and 50m per minute, average.

I try to shoot off the excess ammo above what a squad has, by the time they get a full spot. If an MG gets to the teens in ammo left, I put it on short arcs into open ground, to defend just their immediate surroundings. Between the teens and around 40 (approximately what squads have), it is a judgment call how soon to fire it off. Depends on how well the attackers are doing, and on how long you think the MG can stand up to their fire once they get a spot.

Occasionally I'll use arcs out to 500m when the ground is open enough. I may then check the fire at times by shorting the arcs as the ammo falls. Also for things like MG-34s, US M1917s, and the like, that get over 100 ammo.

Note that very long ranged MG fire is really only effective at troops caught in the open or in poor "approach" cover. If they are in 25% stuff forget it, waste of ammo. Often you won't even keep a spot when they go stationary, if you are firing too far into cover. But a safer way to save the ammo is to have an arc that stays 20m or so away from the better blocks of cover (so targets get well into the open before you hit them).

Also, expect it to pin more than kill, to make approach slower but not impossible.

[vincere]

Jason C

Ok I'll play around with those ranges and circumstances. Before I was tempted to wait until the attackes were a lot closer.

By the way I just started playing pbem and your infantry advice has given me more confidence to take the fight to the opposition.

[civdiv]

Alright, a new, real newbie, question. Is there anyway to display elevation contours in the game? I've seen them displayed in briefing packs, how do you turn them on in the game?

[ February 05, 2006, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: civdiv ]