Effective range of T-34/76?

[istari]

Just finished playing "SP - What Might Have Been", a scenario where the 29th Motorized tries to stop the Soviet breakthrough at Operation Uranus.

Fog left visibility only 750m, but I was equipped with 7 of the new Panzer IVG. I assumed from my reading that if I could engage the T-34s at max range, the optics and accuracy advantage of the 75L/43 would pay off.

To my surprise, I was trading less than 1:1 at 750m - the T-34s were hitting almost every time after 1-2 shots. I was very unpleasantly surprised at the accuracy of the T-34 at this range.

So...

Does anyone have any historical or CMBB data on the effective range of the T-34s 76L/42? I know in the cold war, NATO tankers were taught never to engage T-72s or T-80s at less than 1500m. Is there a similar range at which the T-34 gains this kind of deadly accuracy?

(I've done a search of the forums, but couldn't find this answer- thanks).

Istari

[Joachim]

Originally posted by istari:

Just finished playing "SP - What Might Have Been", a scenario where the 29th Motorized tries to stop the Soviet breakthrough at Operation Uranus.

Fog left visibility only 750m, but I was equipped with 7 of the new Panzer IVG. I assumed from my reading that if I could engage the T-34s at max range, the optics and accuracy advantage of the 75L/43 would pay off.

To my surprise, I was trading less than 1:1 at 750m - the T-34s were hitting almost every time after 1-2 shots. I was very unpleasantly surprised at the accuracy of the T-34 at this range.

So...

Does anyone have any historical or CMBB data on the effective range of the T-34s 76L/42? I know in the cold war, NATO tankers were taught never to engage T-72s or T-80s at less than 1500m. Is there a similar range at which the T-34 gains this kind of deadly accuracy?

(I've done a search of the forums, but couldn't find this answer- thanks).

Istari

Better optics are only modelled regardin spotting abilities. Hit prob is not affected by optics. :mad:

Both tanks can kill each other at long ranges as the PzIV turret is pretty weak.

Playing "Tank warning" currently and I am desparately trying not to get killed at 1200m... If you face unfavorable odds, it is impossible. Local odds are in my favor so I have a kill ratio of 45:8 (including 4 gun damaged tanks)

[c3k]

Istari,

This is a common issue in this game. BFC has a solid reputation for accuracy. (Hmmm, that is both an understatement AND a pun!)

However, there is a widespread feeling that the inherent superiority of the German sighting equipment is undermodelled.

There is also a widespread feeling that Soviet sights and optics were given too many "benefits of the doubt" when it came to issues of their inferiority. This has led to the feeling that the Soviet sights are overmodelled.

These two issues, combined, yield less than expected results when Pz IV longs battle T-34's.

Regards,

Ken

[YankeeDog]

Optics may or may not be undermodeled, but this issue is pretty much irrelevant to a 750m max. range fight.

750m is actually pretty short range as tank fights go. At that range, the accuracy advantage of the higher velocity, superior-sighted 75mm/L43 is minimal. Assuming the main gun has enough power to penetrate, in sub-1000m fights, issues like rate of fire, spotting ability (i.e., 2 vs. 3-man turret, cupola, etc), and target acquisition time (affected by stuff like turret rotation speed) are much more important than overall gun system accuracy (affected primarily by optics and gun velocity).

You *will* see the PzIV develop a substantial accuracy advantage over the T-34 if you push the range out to over 1km. Whether this is because the game models German tanks' superior optics, or simply because the German gun has a higher velocity projectile with a flatter trajectory is another matter.

So if you're using any of the long-barreled PzIVs against T-34/76s, you want the range as long as possible. Your gun can penetrate the T-34s armor at virtually all practical engagement ranges, and you will gain a measure of protection against at least front hull hits at longer ranges. Your turret will always remain a weak point, though. Don't expect the accuracy advantage of better optics and higher velocity gun to show up to any noticable degree until at least 1km, and it does not become a substantial advantage until about 1.5km.

The PzIVs do have other strong points against T-34/76s. Probably the single biggest is the fact that the PzIV has a 3-man turret and a cupola, while the T-34 has neither. In the kind of situation you describe where long-range engagement is not a possibility, I would try to get the T-34s buttoned up before engaging them with the T-34s, which will dramatically slow their spotting ability and reaction speed. With proper tactics, the PzIVs should often then be able to get off 2 or even occasionally 3 shots before a targetted T-34 spots them and returns fire.

Cheers,

YD

[Redwolf]

It is more likely that the combat mess you are facing was caused by absolute spotting.

If you shoot up a large bunch of moving T-34 from standing, possibly halfway hidden small groups of tanks then in reality the T-34 would have a very hard time localizing you. In CM that's no problem as long as any Russian unit spots you.

As a result you face many more return shots than you should. While the hit probablility still is low it is of course multiplied by the number of shots - and dead you are.

P.S. the effect of the optics is very minimal in CM. You can compare the hit probabilities for some vehicles with similar guns and different optics. A few percent difference, not more. Furthermore, if you are defending the effect of zeroing and preregistering in is practially not accounted for bejond individual enemy vehicles.

[istari]

Thanks to all for the detailed replies. I guess there was no way in this scenario to take advantage of the PzIVG's strengths, given the limited visibility from fog.

Sounds like for the future that I should be engaging at 1200m+ to try to gain any technological superiority from German equipment. Less than that range, and the 76L/42 of the T-34 is equivalent to the Germans weapons.

I'm a little frustrated with this scenario, because I just don't see how the Panzertruppen pulled off their impressive kill ratios vs the T-34s. I hit the T-34s with ARTY and MG to button all of their tanks, then rose up from the flanks to spring an ambush. They managed to see my PzIIIHs almost immediately and turned to fire, with stunning accuracy.

(Sigh)

Any other tips people have in combatting the T-34 using 1942 German equipment?

Istari

[istari]

Ah Redwolf, I replied above before seeing your addition.

Yes, that makes alot of sense. If in historical reality, the T-34s were buttoned up and had no radio, I could see how the Panzers could execute massive destruction before the Soviets could respond. But in CM, as you describe, once one T-34 sees the Panzers on a flank, they all turn at once and the mathematics turn against me pretty quickly.

Given the AI's tendency to move his T-34s all in one diffident gaggle, how do you tackle them? Everytime I close the range, they're so closely packed that it's very hard to isolate and get many-vs-few. With the Borg spotting, once one sees me, they all open fire.

Istari

[YankeeDog]

I agree with Redwolf's comments vis a vis Borg spotting and the T-34 vs. PzIV matchup. IRL, I think the T-34's lack of a dedicated gunner and a cupola would be an even greater disadvantage than it is in CM. Even in from late 1942 when most T-34s had radios, the limited field of view when buttoned would make it much more difficult for T-34 crews to communicate precise information as to the location of enemy units between each other.

Nevertheless, the advantages of that a cupola and dedicated gunner confer do manifest to a degree in CMBB. Even with Borg spotting, if you watch closely you'll notice that buttoned tanks without coupolas respond much more slowly to new threats, even if the threat is spotted by another friendly unit. It appears that BFC has worked in some kind of 'reaction penalty' for buttoned tanks to compensate for borg spotting to a degree. While this 'reaction penalty' appears to apply to all buttoned tanks, it seems to be worse if any of the following conditions apply: a) 2- or 1-man turret, lack of coupola, c) flank or rear aspect.

As such, in the situation you mention, try to take advantage of your PzIV's faster reaction time. You'll probably want to be using the "Shoot and Scoot" command a lot. Unfortunately, there is no "Ambush and Scoot" command in CM that allows you to order a tank to fire one or two shots from a stationary ambush position, and then move to defilade, but with advance spotting units tracking enemy armor movements and careful orders plotting, you can often get the same effect with the Shoot and Scoot order, or other tricks like a delayed Reverse order. If a whole gaggle of tightly packed T-34s are buttoned, a PzIV ambushing from the side can often get a shot or two off and reverse back out of LOS before the T-34s react and get a shot off. To do this, you MUST first strip any accompanying infantry off the T-34s - otherwise the enemy infantry will spot the PzIVs right away, and the T-34s will move into LOS already "knowing" the PzIV's position due to borg spotting. This ruins the ambush.

One inherent disadvantage of the "Tank Herd" attack the AI is so fond of is that by definition it put all the armor in one place with little or no flank protection (unless provided by other assets like ATGs or infantry). To take advantage of this initially you want try to take potshots and harrass the gaggle of T-34s from different angles. Have One PzIV appear briefly on one flank, and then when all the t-34 turrets turn that way, pop another one up from a different aspect. No one ambush is all that likely to take out a T-34, but with multiple chances and a little luck you can get off some free shots and eventually even the odds a bit. Patience is essential to making this strategy work.

Also, if your opponent packs his T-34s *really* close together (as the AI often does), tactically speaking the proper response both IRL and in CM is artillery. Arty fire against a single tank in hopes of an immobilization, gun hit, or lucky top hit is usually a poor choice, but if you can get three or more tanks under the same barrage, it becomes much more likely that even relatively light arty will damage a tank.

The TacAI also has a tendency to spread out when hit with an arty barrage, which seems realistic to me. This can make finding a many vs. few matchup easier.

Cheers,

YD

[Alkiviadis]

My own feelings are...after playing "Tank Warning" (it's a wild ride!)... that the T34's optimal engagement window against a Pz4 or Pz3 lies between 650+ meters and 1200+ meters; the sloped armor seems to really come into play as the velocity of German shot decreases. Against a StuG or a Panther/Tiger all bets are off.

I also try to use volley fire against targets, a platoon/target if possible.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by istari:

Ah Redwolf, I replied above before seeing your addition.

Yes, that makes alot of sense. If in historical reality, the T-34s were buttoned up and had no radio, I could see how the Panzers could execute massive destruction before the Soviets could respond. But in CM, as you describe, once one T-34 sees the Panzers on a flank, they all turn at once and the mathematics turn against me pretty quickly.

Given the AI's tendency to move his T-34s all in one diffident gaggle, how do you tackle them? Everytime I close the range, they're so closely packed that it's very hard to isolate and get many-vs-few. With the Borg spotting, once one sees me, they all open fire.

Istari

The only thing you can do is to exploit narrow lanes of LOS.

But the basic low hit probability and the fact that zeroing in is so quickly lost make even that difficult, you miss a lot and no matter how small you LOS field is before you kill one there are gazillions of T-34 all shooting at you.

It is one of the major reasons why I couldn't wait to dump CMBB for CMAK. The CM engine works much better for more symmetrical battles with low quantities of high quality/experience troops on both sides.

All that small groups hold big masses stuff, or masses overrun small dedicated groups, no matter whether infantry or armor, is very difficult to model and for my taste CMBB falls too short for fun. Of course it doesn't help that BFC never backported the faster vehicle turns and lower bog rates of CMAK to CMBB. Plus questionable values for some armor and penetration stats which cause the 75mm L/48 to be sufficient for everything on a CMBB battlefield and the Russian 76mm for nothing except the Panzer IV with its unrealistic turret hit model.

[istari]

Thanks to all for the replies. Helps me to better see the differences the game engine creates between the historical reality and the in-game simulation.

I'll try to apply some of these tactics, but I already feel better that I'm not duplicating the exploits of the Panzertruppen even when I apply their tactics. ;>

(Also sounds like I need to give that CMAK a try)

Istari