Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)

[John Kettler]

civdiv,

Do you mean the French Tellier flying boat gun? If not, please clarify. Am glad you found the article interesting. Would love to own all of Gustin's books, but for now, am grateful he's got such a meaty site.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tero]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Except the start of Soviet offensive, 9th of June 1944. Then every piece of Russian artillery, whether Kronshtadt or fortification batteries, was utilized.

The range limit from Kronstadt is still in effect anyway.

Btw. Tero, the front line wasn't in Terijoki but between Kuokkala (Repino) and Siestarjoki (Sestroretsk), so some 8 km closer to Kronshtadt.

And so it was. My bad. Add ~10 km to the effective range the Finnish troops were in.

Interesting read!

Indeed. Thanks for the heads up.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Except the start of Soviet offensive, 9th of June 1944. Then every piece of Russian artillery, whether Kronshtadt or fortification batteries, was utilized.

The range limit from Kronstadt is still in effect anyway.

Btw. Tero, the front line wasn't in Terijoki but between Kuokkala (Repino) and Siestarjoki (Sestroretsk), so some 8 km closer to Kronshtadt.

And so it was. My bad. Add ~10 km to the effective range the Finnish troops were in.

Interesting read!

Indeed. Thanks for the heads up.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

civdiv,

Do you mean the French Tellier flying boat gun? If not, please clarify. Am glad you found the article interesting. Would love to own all of Gustin's books, but for now, am grateful he's got such a meaty site.

Regards,

John Kettler

The first photo with the guys with cheesy mustaches and the one guy with the bad haircut. The caption says;

"Left, Hotchkiss 47mm cannon in the nose of a French Tellier flying boat."

That gun is a lot bigger than a 47mm. Looks to be a 75.

civdiv

[civdiv]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

civdiv,

Do you mean the French Tellier flying boat gun? If not, please clarify. Am glad you found the article interesting. Would love to own all of Gustin's books, but for now, am grateful he's got such a meaty site.

Regards,

John Kettler

The first photo with the guys with cheesy mustaches and the one guy with the bad haircut. The caption says;

"Left, Hotchkiss 47mm cannon in the nose of a French Tellier flying boat."

That gun is a lot bigger than a 47mm. Looks to be a 75.

civdiv

[Tero]

Originally posted by Andreas:

And you simply have to invent things I never said to have an argument. Why? Are you just sad that way, are you too dumb to read what I write, or do you enjoy trying to intentionally stir things up?

Not particularly. Just noting that you are willing to admit ships as being chalked up as being sunken (by Japanese for example) with the criteria as described and pretty much agreed by both of us. for some reason you will not admit the Marat to that cathegory even when it conforms with the criteria.

Can't tell if your vehemence is directed at Rudel specifically or if it is fuelled by your anti-Nazi and/or perceived hero worshipping predisposition. It seems to me your predisposition requires a kill claim made by a German being contested just because.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Andreas:

And you simply have to invent things I never said to have an argument. Why? Are you just sad that way, are you too dumb to read what I write, or do you enjoy trying to intentionally stir things up?

Not particularly. Just noting that you are willing to admit ships as being chalked up as being sunken (by Japanese for example) with the criteria as described and pretty much agreed by both of us. for some reason you will not admit the Marat to that cathegory even when it conforms with the criteria.

Can't tell if your vehemence is directed at Rudel specifically or if it is fuelled by your anti-Nazi and/or perceived hero worshipping predisposition. It seems to me your predisposition requires a kill claim made by a German being contested just because.

[John Kettler]

civdiv,

Understood. Thought what was what you were referring to, but I had to be sure.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

civdiv,

Understood. Thought what was what you were referring to, but I had to be sure.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Hetzer38]

already posted on CMAK-forum, but!

(...for fear of being drowned by IL-2 related posts...;--)

...it's coming home - it's coming home! Stuka's coming home...

Sorry for posting completly out of context, but!

There were several remarks about the Ju 87G-1 / G-2 having a maximum ammo-load of 12 rounds (6 per clip per gun)...

...gentlemen, this is incorrect. :cool:

During one of the staff meetings on November 3, 1942 Generalfeldmarschall Erhard Milch inquired into the possibility of either replacing the Ju87 with another type, or upgrading it's defensive armament. All present at the meeting agreed that an option of arming the Stuka with MK 108 30mm cannons should be looked into.

The decision was reversed in favor of a BK 3,7 37mm cannon, when its test program had been completed. In December 1942 a Ju87D-1 (WNr. 2552) was equipped with a pair of BK 3,7 cannons mounted on the underwing stations. Each cannon with its Lafette 36 mount and a full supply of ammunition aded 400 kg of weight, which reduced the aircraft's maximum speed to 270 km/h and greatly limited its maneuverability. The aircraft first flew at Rechlin on January 31, 1943 piloted by a Knight's Cross recipient Hptm. Hans-Karl Stepp. Stepp later continued flight testing of the machine at Bryansk proving range. The trials showed that a serious limitation of the modified machine was a modest ammunition of supply for the BK 3,7 cannons, which was only six round per gun. That was quickly fixed by joining two six-round magazines together, although the flight crews were still not impressed with that solution.

Ju87G-1 was a Ju87D-3 airframe without divebreaks or wing-mounted MG 17 7.92mm machine guns.

A number of Ju87G-1s which were built in February 1943 wound up on the Eastern front with an experimental tank-busting unit - Versuchsverband für Panzerbekämpfung, which was also known as Kommando Weiss after it's CO's last name. The unit suffered its first combat loss on March 18, 1943 when WNr. 1097 (DJ+FT) was destroyed.

When Ju87D-5 aircraft entered service, a decision was made to proceed with the development of Ju87G-2 model based on the D-5 airframe. That model featured longer wing span and larger wing area, which gave the G-2 slightly better handling characteristics compared to the G-1 version. The G-2 aircraft did not have dive brakes or wing-mounted 20mm cannons.

Both tank killing variants featured a twin MG 81Z 7.92mm machine manned by the radio operator and two Bordkanone BK 3,7 37mm cannons on the wing stations. The cannons were mounted in streamlined pods which hpoused the firing chamber, recoil damper, electro-pneumatic charging mechanism and an electrically powered trigger assembly. The ammunition was fed from two box magazines holding two frames of six rounds each. The magazine was placed on the the right hand side of the cannon. Spent shells were ejected through an opening on the opposite side of the weapon. After the last round had been fired, the lock would remain in the open position, which in turn triggered illumination of a cockpit annunciator on an SZKK 2 (Schußzahl-Kontrolltaste 2) ammunition counter.

The most commonly used ammunition was armor-piercing (Panzergranate) type. Each cartridge weighed 1,460g including a 623g bullet. New M and L types of armour-piercing ammunition were introduced in 1944. The L type bullet was 124.5mm long and featured a tungsten core which gave it a capability to penetrate a 120mm armor plate, provided it was not angled at less than 60 degrees.

...In total, 20 Ju87G-1s and 210 Ju87G-2s were manufactured.

from: Kagero Monograph 25 - Junkers Ju 87 vol. I - by Marek J. Murawski

...Ju87G-1 full-size-box-magazine...

(photo from: Kagero Monograph 25)

...half loaded right wingpod box-magazine:

(photo from: Luchtoorlog-Warplanes)

...compare the size of the six-round clip with the (overall) size of the box magazine...

(photo from: Luchterlog-Warplanes)

Eine weitere Ausführung G, die zur Bekämpfung von Panzern von oben vorgesehen war, erhielt unter den Tragflächen außerhalb der Fahrwerke zwei Kanonen BK 37 mit allerdings nur je 12 Schuss 37 mm Panzergranaten.

from: Luftarchiv.

A pair of underwing Flak 18 37mm flak guns were mounted with 12 rounds per gun, the normal wing armament generally being deleted to save weight.

from: Sturmvogel.

...makes for a whooping total of 24 rounds per "Kanonenvogel" - sortie. :cool:

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 08, 2007, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

already posted on CMAK-forum, but!

(...for fear of being drowned by IL-2 related posts...;--)

...it's coming home - it's coming home! Stuka's coming home...

Sorry for posting completly out of context, but!

There were several remarks about the Ju 87G-1 / G-2 having a maximum ammo-load of 12 rounds (6 per clip per gun)...

...gentlemen, this is incorrect. :cool:

During one of the staff meetings on November 3, 1942 Generalfeldmarschall Erhard Milch inquired into the possibility of either replacing the Ju87 with another type, or upgrading it's defensive armament. All present at the meeting agreed that an option of arming the Stuka with MK 108 30mm cannons should be looked into.

The decision was reversed in favor of a BK 3,7 37mm cannon, when its test program had been completed. In December 1942 a Ju87D-1 (WNr. 2552) was equipped with a pair of BK 3,7 cannons mounted on the underwing stations. Each cannon with its Lafette 36 mount and a full supply of ammunition aded 400 kg of weight, which reduced the aircraft's maximum speed to 270 km/h and greatly limited its maneuverability. The aircraft first flew at Rechlin on January 31, 1943 piloted by a Knight's Cross recipient Hptm. Hans-Karl Stepp. Stepp later continued flight testing of the machine at Bryansk proving range. The trials showed that a serious limitation of the modified machine was a modest ammunition of supply for the BK 3,7 cannons, which was only six round per gun. That was quickly fixed by joining two six-round magazines together, although the flight crews were still not impressed with that solution.

Ju87G-1 was a Ju87D-3 airframe without divebreaks or wing-mounted MG 17 7.92mm machine guns.

A number of Ju87G-1s which were built in February 1943 wound up on the Eastern front with an experimental tank-busting unit - Versuchsverband für Panzerbekämpfung, which was also known as Kommando Weiss after it's CO's last name. The unit suffered its first combat loss on March 18, 1943 when WNr. 1097 (DJ+FT) was destroyed.

When Ju87D-5 aircraft entered service, a decision was made to proceed with the development of Ju87G-2 model based on the D-5 airframe. That model featured longer wing span and larger wing area, which gave the G-2 slightly better handling characteristics compared to the G-1 version. The G-2 aircraft did not have dive brakes or wing-mounted 20mm cannons.

Both tank killing variants featured a twin MG 81Z 7.92mm machine manned by the radio operator and two Bordkanone BK 3,7 37mm cannons on the wing stations. The cannons were mounted in streamlined pods which hpoused the firing chamber, recoil damper, electro-pneumatic charging mechanism and an electrically powered trigger assembly. The ammunition was fed from two box magazines holding two frames of six rounds each. The magazine was placed on the the right hand side of the cannon. Spent shells were ejected through an opening on the opposite side of the weapon. After the last round had been fired, the lock would remain in the open position, which in turn triggered illumination of a cockpit annunciator on an SZKK 2 (Schußzahl-Kontrolltaste 2) ammunition counter.

The most commonly used ammunition was armor-piercing (Panzergranate) type. Each cartridge weighed 1,460g including a 623g bullet. New M and L types of armour-piercing ammunition were introduced in 1944. The L type bullet was 124.5mm long and featured a tungsten core which gave it a capability to penetrate a 120mm armor plate, provided it was not angled at less than 60 degrees.

...In total, 20 Ju87G-1s and 210 Ju87G-2s were manufactured.

from: Kagero Monograph 25 - Junkers Ju 87 vol. I - by Marek J. Murawski

...Ju87G-1 full-size-box-magazine...

(photo from: Kagero Monograph 25)

...half loaded right wingpod box-magazine:

(photo from: Luchtoorlog-Warplanes)

...compare the size of the six-round clip with the (overall) size of the box magazine...

(photo from: Luchterlog-Warplanes)

Eine weitere Ausführung G, die zur Bekämpfung von Panzern von oben vorgesehen war, erhielt unter den Tragflächen außerhalb der Fahrwerke zwei Kanonen BK 37 mit allerdings nur je 12 Schuss 37 mm Panzergranaten.

from: Luftarchiv.

A pair of underwing Flak 18 37mm flak guns were mounted with 12 rounds per gun, the normal wing armament generally being deleted to save weight.

from: Sturmvogel.

...makes for a whooping total of 24 rounds per "Kanonenvogel" - sortie. :cool:

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 08, 2007, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

...it's coming home - it's coming home...

Luchterlog-Warplanes also have an overview of the different rounds used for the BK 3,7:

My wacky translation of the text beneath the image (on the Luchterlog-page):

Overview of the 3,7cm BK ammunition.

No new ammunuiton had to be developed for the Stuka-Kanonen.

The Luftwaffe could rely on ammunition used by the Flak 3,7cm 18/38/37 and Pak 3,7cm 36/L45. These were:

1. Minengranatpatrone 18, Leuchtspur mit Zerleger for Luft-Boden attacks. (both upper sketches).

2. Brandsprenggranatpatrone, Leuchtspur mit Zerleger for Luft-Boden attacks.

3. Sprenggranatpatrone 18, Leuchtspur mit Zerleger for Luft-Boden attacks.

4. Springgranate 18 (blind) without Leuchtspur and Zerleger for weapon-testing.

5. Sprenggranatpatrone 18 (blind) Leuchtspur without Zerleger for exercises.

6. Granatapatrone 18 for weapon adjustment.

7. Exerzierpatrone 18 for the drill.

The Minengranatpatrone were mainly used against air aims.

+ the "M" and "L" types mentioned in my previous post...

Cheers, Hetzer.

[Hetzer38]

...it's coming home - it's coming home...

Luchterlog-Warplanes also have an overview of the different rounds used for the BK 3,7:

My wacky translation of the text beneath the image (on the Luchterlog-page):

Overview of the 3,7cm BK ammunition.

No new ammunuiton had to be developed for the Stuka-Kanonen.

The Luftwaffe could rely on ammunition used by the Flak 3,7cm 18/38/37 and Pak 3,7cm 36/L45. These were:

1. Minengranatpatrone 18, Leuchtspur mit Zerleger for Luft-Boden attacks. (both upper sketches).

2. Brandsprenggranatpatrone, Leuchtspur mit Zerleger for Luft-Boden attacks.

3. Sprenggranatpatrone 18, Leuchtspur mit Zerleger for Luft-Boden attacks.

4. Springgranate 18 (blind) without Leuchtspur and Zerleger for weapon-testing.

5. Sprenggranatpatrone 18 (blind) Leuchtspur without Zerleger for exercises.

6. Granatapatrone 18 for weapon adjustment.

7. Exerzierpatrone 18 for the drill.

The Minengranatpatrone were mainly used against air aims.

+ the "M" and "L" types mentioned in my previous post...

Cheers, Hetzer.

[John Kettler]

Hetzer38,

Don't know how I missed it, but 120mm penetration against armor sloped less than 60 degrees is way more potent than even what I'd dug up. No wonder the Ju-87G ate tanks so well! Too bad no firing range was given for that number.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Hetzer38,

Don't know how I missed it, but 120mm penetration against armor sloped less than 60 degrees is way more potent than even what I'd dug up. No wonder the Ju-87G ate tanks so well! Too bad no firing range was given for that number.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Tero:

Originally posted by Andreas:

And you simply have to invent things I never said to have an argument. Why? Are you just sad that way, are you too dumb to read what I write, or do you enjoy trying to intentionally stir things up?

Not particularly. Just noting that you are willing to admit ships as being chalked up as being sunken (by Japanese for example) with the criteria as described and pretty much agreed by both of us. for some reason you will not admit the Marat to that cathegory even when it conforms with the criteria.

Can't tell if your vehemence is directed at Rudel specifically or if it is fuelled by your anti-Nazi and/or perceived hero worshipping predisposition. It seems to me your predisposition requires a kill claim made by a German being contested just because.

I suggest you read my posts as often as it takes for you to understand them. At this moment, you clearly have more reading to do.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Tero:

Originally posted by Andreas:

And you simply have to invent things I never said to have an argument. Why? Are you just sad that way, are you too dumb to read what I write, or do you enjoy trying to intentionally stir things up?

Not particularly. Just noting that you are willing to admit ships as being chalked up as being sunken (by Japanese for example) with the criteria as described and pretty much agreed by both of us. for some reason you will not admit the Marat to that cathegory even when it conforms with the criteria.

Can't tell if your vehemence is directed at Rudel specifically or if it is fuelled by your anti-Nazi and/or perceived hero worshipping predisposition. It seems to me your predisposition requires a kill claim made by a German being contested just because.

I suggest you read my posts as often as it takes for you to understand them. At this moment, you clearly have more reading to do.

All the best

Andreas

[Hetzer38]

John, I thought the 120mm penetration ability "claim" was way high, now this lists the "Hartkernmunition" fired by the BK 37 as being able to penetrate

140mm @ 100m @ 90°... :eek:

The remaining German guns were all adaptations of ground guns. The first was the 37 mm BK 3,7, a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun firing the same 37x263B ammunition. This meant that it was bulky, heavy and slow-firing by comparison with the NS-37, for example. It also remained clip-fed, with a maximum capacity of just 12 rounds. It mainly fired Hartkernmunition ammo, capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees although this was halved at a striking angle of 60 degrees.

from: TANKBUSTERS: AIRBORNE ANTI-TANK GUNS IN WW2

According to this site, the BK 3,7's 37x263B cartridge's projectile weighed 405 grams. Muzzle Velocity: 1,140 m/s, Muzzle Energy: 263,000 joules.

Rate of fire for the BK 3,7: 160 rpm.

Make sure to see rest of this freakin' detailed site comparing the air-to-ground-anti-tank equipment used by the USSR / Germany / GBR / USA in WWII.

Comparisment of different guns and cartridges (plus Cartridge Illustrations, YUMYUM:-) and weapon platforms...and info and stuff!

Edit:

Here, here and here are more photos of 37x263B rounds...

from TONY WILLIAMS' AMMUNITION PHOTO GALLERY.

BTW...

Where have all the Rechlin penetration-charts gone?

Where have all the Ju87G gun-camera films gone?

(They did have gun-cameras aboard, didn't they? Wouldn't that explain how some "Luftwaffe-eyewitnesses-only-claims" were "confirmed", by just viewing the "tape"?)

Damn, I bet they're locked up secure somewhere "über den Teich".

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 05, 2007, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

John, I thought the 120mm penetration ability "claim" was way high, now this lists the "Hartkernmunition" fired by the BK 37 as being able to penetrate

140mm @ 100m @ 90°... :eek:

The remaining German guns were all adaptations of ground guns. The first was the 37 mm BK 3,7, a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun firing the same 37x263B ammunition. This meant that it was bulky, heavy and slow-firing by comparison with the NS-37, for example. It also remained clip-fed, with a maximum capacity of just 12 rounds. It mainly fired Hartkernmunition ammo, capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees although this was halved at a striking angle of 60 degrees.

from: TANKBUSTERS: AIRBORNE ANTI-TANK GUNS IN WW2

According to this site, the BK 3,7's 37x263B cartridge's projectile weighed 405 grams. Muzzle Velocity: 1,140 m/s, Muzzle Energy: 263,000 joules.

Rate of fire for the BK 3,7: 160 rpm.

Make sure to see rest of this freakin' detailed site comparing the air-to-ground-anti-tank equipment used by the USSR / Germany / GBR / USA in WWII.

Comparisment of different guns and cartridges (plus Cartridge Illustrations, YUMYUM:-) and weapon platforms...and info and stuff!

Edit:

Here, here and here are more photos of 37x263B rounds...

from TONY WILLIAMS' AMMUNITION PHOTO GALLERY.

BTW...

Where have all the Rechlin penetration-charts gone?

Where have all the Ju87G gun-camera films gone?

(They did have gun-cameras aboard, didn't they? Wouldn't that explain how some "Luftwaffe-eyewitnesses-only-claims" were "confirmed", by just viewing the "tape"?)

Damn, I bet they're locked up secure somewhere "über den Teich".

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 05, 2007, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

I found two Rechlin drawings @ IL2-forums...

1. E'Stelle Rechlin E6 -- FL - Bordwaffen-Munition --

3,7cm H-Pzgr. Patr. L'spur o. Zerl.

2. E'Stelle Rechlin E6 -- FL - Bordwaffen-Munition --

3,7cm H-Pzgr.L'spur o. Zerl.

3,7cm Hartkern-Panzergranate Leuchtspur ohne Zerleger

-> 3,7cm hardcore-AP tracer w/o self-destruction

a wolfram-carbide core in a housing of aluminium.

the numbers for penetration are

at 90 degrees

@100m = 140mm

@600m = 95mm

at 60 degrees

@100m = 69mm

@600m = 47mm

V0=1150Ms

tracer burns for 1200meters (1.5 sec)

weight 405 gram

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 05, 2007, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

I found two Rechlin drawings @ IL2-forums...

1. E'Stelle Rechlin E6 -- FL - Bordwaffen-Munition --

3,7cm H-Pzgr. Patr. L'spur o. Zerl.

2. E'Stelle Rechlin E6 -- FL - Bordwaffen-Munition --

3,7cm H-Pzgr.L'spur o. Zerl.

3,7cm Hartkern-Panzergranate Leuchtspur ohne Zerleger

-> 3,7cm hardcore-AP tracer w/o self-destruction

a wolfram-carbide core in a housing of aluminium.

the numbers for penetration are

at 90 degrees

@100m = 140mm

@600m = 95mm

at 60 degrees

@100m = 69mm

@600m = 47mm

V0=1150Ms

tracer burns for 1200meters (1.5 sec)

weight 405 gram

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 05, 2007, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[John Kettler]

Hetzer38,

Wunderbar! As the Tankbusters site notes, the BK 3.7 firing PzGr 40 (my shorthand) was very much in the same league as the GAU-8 in terms of muzzle energy, which certainly gives credence to the possibility of serious havoc being wrought by the Ju-87G jocks.

If an A-10 can gut an M-47, and the BK 3.7 is in the same muzzle energy range, albeit sans DU, it seems eminently reasonable that the JU-87G, firing from less than half of the A-10's slant range (from the previously cited ammo acceptance test circa 2000 ft., ~630 meters) down to a mere 100 meters, 328 feet, ought to readily pierce the much worse protected WW II Russian tanks.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Hetzer38,

Wunderbar! As the Tankbusters site notes, the BK 3.7 firing PzGr 40 (my shorthand) was very much in the same league as the GAU-8 in terms of muzzle energy, which certainly gives credence to the possibility of serious havoc being wrought by the Ju-87G jocks.

If an A-10 can gut an M-47, and the BK 3.7 is in the same muzzle energy range, albeit sans DU, it seems eminently reasonable that the JU-87G, firing from less than half of the A-10's slant range (from the previously cited ammo acceptance test circa 2000 ft., ~630 meters) down to a mere 100 meters, 328 feet, ought to readily pierce the much worse protected WW II Russian tanks.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Hetzer38:

Where have all the Ju87G gun-camera films gone?

(They did have gun-cameras aboard, didn't they? Wouldn't that explain how some "Luftwaffe-eyewitnesses-only-claims" were "confirmed", by just viewing the "tape"?)

Damn, I bet they're locked up secure somewhere "über den Teich".

Cheers, Hetzer.

Or they were destroyed, like so much of the Luftwaffe material. BTW "some", does that mean, one, two, or thousands? How do you verify a kill from watching a tape?

As for the discussion on penetration, I see this as an interesting side-bar. To me at least the ability of the 37mm gun fixed on the Ju 87 to damage or kill a WW2 tank from above was never in question. The ability of the pilots to achieve the hits reliably is.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Hetzer38:

Where have all the Ju87G gun-camera films gone?

(They did have gun-cameras aboard, didn't they? Wouldn't that explain how some "Luftwaffe-eyewitnesses-only-claims" were "confirmed", by just viewing the "tape"?)

Damn, I bet they're locked up secure somewhere "über den Teich".

Cheers, Hetzer.

Or they were destroyed, like so much of the Luftwaffe material. BTW "some", does that mean, one, two, or thousands? How do you verify a kill from watching a tape?

As for the discussion on penetration, I see this as an interesting side-bar. To me at least the ability of the 37mm gun fixed on the Ju 87 to damage or kill a WW2 tank from above was never in question. The ability of the pilots to achieve the hits reliably is.

All the best

Andreas