Where's all the Hungarian equipment?

[ww2steel]

Mar'43 - Mar'44, where are all of the Hungarian armored vehicles? Is it due to the losses at Stalingrad? I never really paid too much attention to them until a couple recent battles.

Thanks,

Mike

[Andreas]

Hungarian 2nd Army was destroyed on the Donets in January 1943. Thereafter I believe only Hungarian security divisions were active, and new regular formations were only ready to be sent out over a year later.

During Beta-testing CMBB, I played a QB TCP, all set to random. I got the Hungarians in summer 43. My opponent got tanks. Slaughter.

All the best

Andreas

[Corvidae]

psst, the hungarian equipment is in the shed behind out behind the willows..

[ww2steel]

Andreas, same thing happened to me yesterday. All I got were 2 40mm AT and a 37mm PaK. I got rolled on by 3* T-34s and 5* T-70, assorted armored cars and about a company of infantry. (I was security forces). I managed to take out a T-70 and a few armored cars, and the mud claimed a T-34 for me.

At 17% victory... I got stomped!

Thanks for the info, very interesting!

Mike

[ww2steel]

I found this on a WWII armor website:

In March of 1944 Germany occupied Hungary and forced them to commit all their armored units to the front.

How accurate is this?

I can't find much info on the Hungarian H39. Did Germany sell them to them presumably?

Thanks,

Mike

[John Kettler]

ww2steel,

If you can find a copy, I highly recommend you read the Hungary portion (a whole 5 pages or so, mostly

photographs) of Zaloga's THE EASTERN FRONT: Armor Camouflage and Markings. It lists what the Hungarians had at the beginning of the war, what they had to buy from the Germans to make up shortfalls while waiting for Toldis and Turans to be produced, the horrendous losses at Stalingrad and from Kutozov (six tanks made it back to Hungary), the arrival of the Toldis and Turans (eaten alive by T-34/85s), plus confirmation that when the Germans took over the Hungarian armor (by then including Zrinyis, StuGs, Tigers and Panthers) was all sent to the Eastern Front. Didn't see any H-39s mentioned at all.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 30, 2006, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[uhu]

Helló Mike!

I already saw your website - great work, also the vehicles, weapons and the book!

A read the book, which is also a quality work, but there are should be some minor refinements. We have in Hungary a small, but very strong CMBB community, I think we can help you. (we could also help earlier to the developers, and many corrections were included therefore in the patches :cool: )

If you write me your email adress, I will write you the minor corrections, which is needed in the book.

For this question the answer is:

After the disaster at the Don in January, 1943. the remaining of the 2nd Hungarian Army was transported back to Hungary (the army lost almost all their heavy weapons, including his armoured units). After that, only security forces stayed in Russia. It was a political decision from Hungary: to spare forces after the war, and not to bloody them in Russia. (plus in 1943.the goverment already made a secret pre-armistice agreement with the *western* allies - sadly, the allied decision were modified, and therefore this agreement could not come into life )

After the german possession (is that the right world for that?) of Hungary in March, 1944., in April the entire 1st Hungarian Army were sent by the germans to Galicia (West-Ukraine, not for from the hungarian borders), to help fill the gap, between the Heeresgruppe Middle and South. The attack began on 17th April and it was almost a full sucess, but soon it must be halted, because of the stiffening soviet resistance.

Originally posted by ww2steel:

Mar'43 - Mar'44, where are all of the Hungarian armored vehicles? Is it due to the losses at Stalingrad? I never really paid too much attention to them until a couple recent battles.

Thanks,

Mike

[ August 30, 2006, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: uhu ]

[uhu]

I don't know this book, but what you wrote here, it should be not a very good one...

1., At the beginning of the war with the soviets, Hungary had panzers, the Toldi I's and the CV-35's (which is marked in CMBB as armoured vehicle, which is true, but in hungarian army, it was in the armour category).

2., In 1942., the to the front going 2nd Hungarian Army received (this is the only point, what I don't know if they were bought, or lent) 108 T-38's and 22 Pz IVF1's.

3., Not at Stalingrad and Kutuzov, but at the Don were theese big losses in January, 1943.

4., Toldi's were not sent again T-34's, because the hungarian army did not utilised Kamikaze units . The Turans were also not comparable to the T-34/85's, that's true. The Turan I, with his 40mm gun could not penetrate the armour of the T-34/85, the Turan II, with his short barelled 75mm gun only at 50m distance, from flank. (This is therefore false data in CMBB, that the gun of the Turan I has better AT capabilities, as the Turan II.)

5., Germans took no armour over from hungarians, all hungarian armour remained hungarian hands, and the panzer divisions, as fightning units, until they were destroyed (1st hun. pz. div.), or fought still the end of the war (2nd hun. pz. div.) The germans gave several armour time to time to bolstering their allies armoured forces.

I don't say it, because I'm also a hungarian, but there are also german resources for, that hungarian armour crews were highly trained units with high morale, several of them even elite - they only had most time not the good tools to encounter the enemy . But, when they had - Tiger I's, Panthers, and the Zrinyi II-2s - they made good performance.

6., The hungarian security forces received 15 H-39 for security purposes. They almost all were destroyed, the last ones in the fights again soviet regular units.

Originally posted by John Kettler:

ww2steel,

If you can find a copy, I highly recommend you read the Hungary portion (a whole 5 pages or so, mostly

photographs) of Zaloga's THE EASTERN FRONT: Armor Camouglage & Markings. It lists what the Hungarians had at the beginning of the war, what they had to buy from the Germans to make up shortfalls while waiting for Toldis and Turans to be produced, the horrendous losses at Stalingrad and from Kutozov (six tanks made it back to Hungary), the arrival of the Toldis and Turans (eaten alive by T-34/85s), plus confirmation that when the Germans took over the Hungarian armor (by then including Zrinyis, StuGs, Tigers and Panthers) was all sent to the Eastern Front. Didn't see any H-39s mentioned at all.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 30, 2006, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: uhu ]

[Wicky]

A quick question to the Hungarian grogs

My Hungarian grandfather at the end of the war, according to my mothers recollection's, ended up serving in a Anti-Aircraft unit in Northern Italy/Austria.

Not sure if he was in a Hungarian unit attached to the Germans or wether as a soldier with Austro-Hungarian heritage he served directly within German forces.

Which is the more probable?

[Andreas]

I am not sure if Hungarian Volksdeutsche were drafted into the Wehrmacht. I doubt it, and I know that Hungarian units were all over the place towards the end of the war, so I'd think it is more likely he was with one of those.

All the best

Andreas

[ww2steel]

Uhu - thank you so much for this information. You are making me really glad I have posted this book, because my data is going to be enhanced in many ways. Thank you for this data!

Thanks to everybody for their help!

We just moved into a new house, so my comms will be as slow as a buttoned KV-2. Feel free to shoot me an email: mdows@ww2steel.com

Mike