Bunkers, wire, trenches and deep woods.

[Thin Red Line]

In a PBEM i organized the following defense system in tall pines for my finnish infantry (Jakäri).

XXXXXXXX ennemy XXXXXXX

____RS____MGB____RS____

XXX= Barbed wire

___= Trench

RS = rifle squad

MGB = MG bunker

The russian in attacking mostly with SMG squads.

I really thought this defense was unbeatable.

Guess what ? the bunkers are killed by grenades pretty quickly and the infantry is overun.

Any suggestsion for a better layout of my defense asset ?

Note : I think the main problem is spotting. The bunkers don't spot well so they are killed without firing back.

[nevermind]

Need lots more info.For example,how far is it from the line of wire to your trenchline?All additional info will be helpful.

[Thin Red Line]

The Wire is just inside the limit spotting distance of the squads (must be approx 25m,the squads can spot the wire but not beyond).

The squads must be at 15m on each side of the bunker.

[Joachim]

If it is really inside tall pines, the enemy has too much cover (see thread "foxholes vs trenches" and the links there for more info) and might come into grenade range.

Bunkers are long range assets! Their value is more in disrupting advances leading to an unorganized attack than just killing alone.

If you are just inside tall pines and control a large open area it could work. Use a small but wide covered arc to only fire in open areas and cancel the target after each turn. The TacAI sticks to set targets while he overrides those he selects himself during a turn.

Trenches are a waste in woods (see same source as above)

Gruß

Joachim

[nevermind]

Is that all the points that you can allocate toward your defense?

I would do away with the bunker entirely.In its place i would get a AP mine field or two and place it where you have the word "enemy".I would also get some FT teams(and have them in your trench line) to make the then sneaking(because of being on the mines)smg squads nice and toasty

If thats not enough,a couple of mortar teams(50mm will do nicely) behind the trenchline and out of LOS to the enemy.You then use the HQ to spot for them and drop the mortar rounds on the infantry that are in the mines and now burning Instant rout of all of them.God you gotta love CM!!

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Joachim:

Bunkers are long range assets! Their value is more in disrupting advances leading to an unorganized attack than just killing alone.

Hmm...They are easily killed by the tanks in the open. That's exactly the reason why i have put them in a wooden area (as part of a much larger and complex defense system on a giant map).

Originally posted by nevermind :

Is that all the points that you can allocate toward your defense?

I would do away with the bunker entirely.In its place i would get a AP mine field or two and place it where you have the word "enemy".I would also get some FT teams(and have them in your trench line) to make the then sneaking(because of being on the mines)smg squads nice and toasty

If thats not enough,a couple of mortar teams(50mm will do nicely) behind the trenchline and out of LOS to the enemy.You then use the HQ to spot for them and drop the mortar rounds on the infantry that are in the mines and now burning Instant rout of all of them.God you gotta love CM!!

I don't have mortars neither FTs in this specific case.

The AP minefield is a good alternative i admit.

Maybe the bunker trick against infantry works in woods in winter (inaccessible to tanks + visiblity superior than granade range) but not in tall pines.

[Conscript Bagger]

I'm surprised that the enemy is even getting shots off from the wire - the last I knew, wire areas were like open terrain for cover purposes. They ought to be cowering in the mud under your defensive fire. Maybe the attackers are fanatics (or at least have a Jedi CO)?

[Thin Red Line]

No there is no wire were the ennemy is (in front of the bunker). To save wire (i had only a limited quantity) i left "holes" in the wire line but it was supposed to be covered by the bunker fire...

[Sergei]

Good use for bunkers is in conjunction with AT assets, so that neither tanks nor infantry are safe. Then enemy can use artillery to break the AT defences, but even this can be difficult if it is behind a bend or in reversed slope so that enemy spotters can't get a LOS.

In deep forests you don't get good enough LOS for taking advantage of HMG's, and the enemy can easily close in to within 30 m and throw explosives at you. In those circumstances you're better off with SMG-heavy infantry, e.g. Jääkäri platoon. Maybe light mortars to support if you can arrange them so that they are not hindered by the min. range, as tree bursts from those can be of great moral support to your infantry - which is needed if the Soviets attack with their all-SMG infantry.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Good use for bunkers is in conjunction with AT assets, so that neither tanks nor infantry are safe. Then enemy can use artillery to break the AT defences, but even this can be difficult if it is behind a bend or in reversed slope so that enemy spotters can't get a LOS.

Yup, combined arms is the name of the game. Bunkers alone will do to secure a clearing or an open stretch of woods inaccesible to tanks (AT mines, roadblocks, ...).

A defense should be on a reverse slope too be safe from long distance fire. But it should have some big cover difference for close distance fire. Infantry in trenches has 9% exposure. In woods about 13-14%. If the enemy brings along twice the number of infantry with even higher fp than your squad, you are pinned and soon dead meat as the attacker will move some of his troops forward while yours are pinned:

Classic outcome 2:1 at 30-40m: You toss 1 grenade. Enemy squad pins. Next enemy squads lobs grenades while you fire on first squad. Soon you are pinned. Once pinned, the fire of one squad will keep you pinned or panicked. First squad rallies, moves in. Kills.

Classic outcome 2:1 if there is a clearing of at least 100m. Halfsquad moves in. Gets annihilated by your MP-armed half squad. It is just 1.5:1 now. You get return fire. If enemy has MPs only, he wastes ammo and has low fp. He will not pin you. You hide and/or crawl away just in case, while the 2nd halfsquad overwatches. Likely the enemy will loose sight. If there are no enemy heavy wpns, the fight is over. Expected losses 1-2 men.

Wire does not affect the whole tile - only half to 2/3s of it. And you usually can't set covered arcs to just the wire and be out of LOS of units not in the wire. Wire is too little to create reverse slope - plus the enemy can guess where you are.

Possible tactic Hit and Run: Foxholes in trees (10%) at edge of woods - just able to see out to kill scouts while in the open. Retreat (sneak or run) to MLR (trenches, 2nd foxholes)... or sneak forward again.

Gruß

Joachim

[Sardaukar]

I think you need more LOS for your bunker. 25 m just don't make it since it's inside grenade range. Wire inside woods is usually bad for attacker, since it negates cover and concealment bonus of terrain quite a bit...but you need more firepower to kill the enemy when they are *in* the wire, so that they don't get past it...then they are basicly in equal or even better position than you are, esp. if SMG squads.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Sardaukar:

I think you need more LOS for your bunker. 25 m just don't make it since it's inside grenade range. Wire inside woods is usually bad for attacker, since it negates cover and concealment bonus of terrain quite a bit...but you need more firepower to kill the enemy when they are *in* the wire, so that they don't get past it...then they are basicly in equal or even better position than you are, esp. if SMG squads.

Cheers,

M.S.

A decent attacker won't send all of his men into the wire until he is sure nobody shoots back. Walking along the wire (but not in) will often trigger covered arcs. If no covered arcs are set, he will try to find small passages and prbably run thru. Even if you catch a half-squad in the wire, overwhelming numbers will pin or even rout you after the first volley.

Sorry, but IMHO the whole concept is doomed as usually the attacker will have local odds. Wire in woods works for "rear" edges (add indirect fire, allow the scouts to pass) or to block small woods. It does not create reverse slope effects.

woods........TRP....woods TRP

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wire in woods

..............................clear

............++++++............mines/clear

.............bbbb.............some LOS blocking obstacle/clear

..........._squads_...........squads in trench/clear

........................clear

woods bunker woods HQ woods... bunker or HQ

woods..............mortars...... mortars in command.

or you can use a defence on a small rear slope with support from a 2nd line.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx..clear

...........TRP .....................clear

.......+++++++++++++................mines/clear

.......bbbbbbbbbbbbb................LOS blocking/clearobstacle

.......MG__squad__MG

...................................clerr

...................................clear

...MG.......woods.......MG.........woods

and hide the MGs in the woods till lots of targets outside grenade range appear.

If you make sure he can't rush you while you are pinned and he fires from distance, you may sit out the firestorm cause your pinned units might vanish (only) from sight.

Mortars don't kill in the open, even in wire. You need something heavy to kill in the open...

In both cases, the killing is done by the arty. The TRP is essential.

The wire is to prevent overwhelming numbers rushing in (or out!) fast. Scouts entering will be killed by those in the trench - either when entering "bbbbb" or when bypassing. If more men are across the wire heading towards bbbb (and thus far from cover), you open up with the arty. Either on the fire base or on those inside the wire. In the latter case the 2nd line kills the intruders while the firebase is pinned.

MGs in trenches are cheaper and better than bunkers. For short ranges, squads are better as they have grenades.

Gruß

Joachim

[ January 22, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[JasonC]

Wire can create effective "reverse slope" effects in large bodies of continuous forest. But it requires an active defense, and won't defend any position on its own. Some true position first needs to be created, then wire can improve it. More on ways to suppliment woods defenses with it below.

Bunkers are basically useless. They combine a requirement for long LOS lines (else infantry easily flanks them), total lack of mobility, zero stealth when firing, and defenselessness against any form of direct fire HE. Behind a slope that no tank can cross, you can imagine barely possible situations where they might work. But for the same price you can just take a field gun, or two HMG teams in good cover or trenches, either of which will do more and do it with much greater stealth. Inside continous woods they are simply far too easy to avoid.

Fighting in continuous woods is dominated by good infantry. Which must be willing to move around to be effective. Anything completely stationary has real problems in woods, because LOS lines are so short the other guy can pick whether or not to engage. This makes all forms of towed guns marginal, as well as the bunkers. HMGs aren't much better than squads, but at least have high ammo.

When fighting in woods, the basic unit of strength is not a squad or two, or even a full platoon. That isn't enough. You want to maneuver in half companies. By a half company I mean 2 HQs with 4-8 squads - whether 2 infantry platoons, or a platoon and a company HQ. You need to be able to overpower a single platoon. Also, you need to be able to move to two locations, to open and close the deployment like a hand. One HQ, even with + command rating, just doesn't have a big enough command distance for this in short LOS terrain.

First contact often pins or panics the nearest two squads before you have a chance to issue a single order. If all you have left unpinned is one squad and an HQ, you will not be able to react effectively, and the first contact result - whatever it was - will simply snowball without any control.

Instead you need to be able to throw in a platoon the turn after contact, from a direction you've picked based on exactly where the enemy is, (hence the need for a second HQ), lining up many on fews and trying to free already pinned squads. If you can't, they will be wiped out completely inside of 2 minutes. You don't "hold" anything that way.

The right way to set up an infantry half company to defend a location in continuous woods is as an "L" shaped ambush. You want the enemy running into one line, and then while pinned to be counterattacks along another axis at right angles to the first. This gets a flanking many-on-few at the end of a pinned line, rolling in up. The guys on the flanking end face so little fire they don't get suppressed themselves. Do not leave it to a coin toss which side has unsuppressed shooters in the second minute of the firefight, as a strait linear engagement does.

There are two other effective forms of defensive position in continous woods. One is the artillery trap. That means one or two TRPs and a small "listening post" to know when there are enemy there to shoot at. A single LMG team hiding can serve.

A "patrol" does it somewhat better - an HQ and a single squad split into halves, or that plus one full squad back with the HQ (to intervene against half squad scouts or free a pinned half squad). These aren't meant to shoot it out with any infantry, just to hear them, sneak around, and still be able to get out of dodge. If it is a full patrol and it turns out to be an inactive area, they can go looking for rear areas stuff (mortars, FOs, etc).

A sniper would be stealthy for this, but only worth it if he has open ground for LOS somewhere - he won't use the scoped rifle unless enemies are more than 100 yards away, because he doesn't want to be spotted.

The actual trap is just TRP arty, preferably 105mm caliber or larger. Treebursts by that stuff will break a platoon and reduce some units to half squads. Ligther stuff only pins, and the targets recover completely in 2 minutes. Lighter stuff is therefore only useful if you can follow it up immediately with full sized regular infantry forces. Not the idea with an artillery trap.

Instead use big stuff, drop the few shells as the end of the first turn that the TRP allows. If there are still enemy there, drop a full minute on them, then shut it off. If you have a full patrol sized group of "watchers" you might risk a follow up while they are broken, otherwise just creep away while the shells are falling, and hide in a new location. Near another TRP if you've got one. A good artillery trap will run you 150-200 points, a shoestring one might manage with 100. Extra points increase the number of TRPs or upgrade the "watcher" force.

The third type of effective continuous woods position is the U shaped minefield. This needs at least 7 tiles to do anything, and more like 10-12 plus a "patrol" worth of watchers to be really effective. Instead of making a single straight line, put 3-5 across the back wall and 2-3 angled forward and away from that wall on either side.

A "spur" off one outer wall of the U (to hit someone tracing the outside and make him think it is the other way 'round) or double thickness in 1-2 places (for the random misses and for pioneers), are variants to the basic idea. Which is to invite people avoiding the first tile hit - or half of them - deeper into the U. It separates a group of the enemy and makes them ineffective. A TRP can be added in the middle of the U. Arty's main job can be elsewhere, but this gives you options and can turn a big "catch" into a kill.

You watch it with a patrol, which mostly just wants to know whether anyone has made it through. But they can also bushwhack the first unit across (which is often crawling and pinned), from the edge of LOS, while all his friends are still too far away. This gives the illusion of a mined MLR, and often the attacker will try someplace else.

Any of those can hold an area of frontage. The half company is a main position, the others are delaying tactics that hold part of the frontage, letting the infantry concentrate elsewhere. The infantry has to be ready and willing to move, to react to enemies coming through one of the delay areas or to counterattack people hung up in front of one of them.

And wire can suppliment any of them. With the L ambush, you can use it to induce the enemy to go around. That is -

x-x-x-x-x-wire-x-x-x-x-x

_________Flankers

_____________________Line Troops

The flankers can cover the wire if anyone actually wants to come through it. But you don't expect that. Instead they will come around. The line troops then form the "fixers". The flankers come at them from the direction of the wire. The wire effectively protects your flankers' own flank nearest the enemy.

With the U shaped minefield, you can put a wire obstacle - 5 wire in a line e.g. - off to one side of the U, to make it more likely people avoiding the wire walk into the U. One of the LP half squads can listen by the wire.

With the arty trap position, you put the wire past the TRPs, modest lengths of it. Guys going around the wire tend to bunch up, making better arty targets. Your patrol watchers can also put wire between them and enemies to break contact when necessary. It doesn't need to cover the whole frontage.

Think of the wire as 20-40 point suppliments to these positions, not as substitutes for them. And realize the infantry half-companies are going to do most of the work. Do not sit still with them, either. In continuous woods, the name of the game is many on few from differential LOS. Choice of LOS comes from moving - short advances to change who sees who, then stationary the rest of the minute to fire.

The edge the defender has in these affairs comes from superior intel, from the attacker moving into your zone, past your listening posts. He doesn't know where your main body infantry groups are, and they don't sit still. You hear him with your LPs, get to the right positions ahead of him, and then take the fight to him.

I hope this helps.

[JasonC]

To understand how the above sort of woods defense functions, you have to put on the attacker's hat for a while and think about what it will do to typical common sense attack options. Suppose the attacker comes along a wide front, in line, single platoons sent everywhere. One runs into arty and gets messed up, another is hung up in mines, neither seriously hurt but also not going anyplace. Another runs into serious infantry and gets whacked. The result is chaos. The defenders that won their infantry engagement are still alive and are repositioning, and the attacker is all disorganized and strong nowhere.

If on the other hand the attacker picks one area and comes in a long column, he hits a delay area or he hits the MLR area. If he hits a delay area he gets, well, delayed. A long column takes time to build its strength up front after it hits something, anyway. The column folds up toward the obstacle, perhaps spilling right or left trying to get around it. In the meantime the defending infantry know about the point of main effort, the LPs hear nothing coming elsewhere, and so the defenders reposition to deal with the point of attack. If instead he hits the MLR, his point gets mess up then he tries to deploy to fight the defenders. Who are already in the right spot. Any naive attempt to just flank them runs into a delay area. If the defenders still don't like the odds up front, they just bug out and do it again half a kilometer back.