Richie Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 MK as German infantry tries to storm it early on. Why early? There's still grass on the ground! ...And the buildings are in one piece, not totally flattened, and the absence of shell craters... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 9, 2007 Author Share Posted February 9, 2007 Richie, There are several other MK shots on that same site, except they're listed as Hohe 102 (Hill 102). One of them shows some sort of cottage, and another is a view from somewhere on MK, I believe. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 17th September 1942 During the night Chuikov moved his HQ from the Tsaritsa gully to a position on the Volga river bank, 800 m north of the Red October Factory (Beevor, 1999; Chuikov, 1963). This was an unprotect site just under some giant oil-storage tanks. The latter were assumed to be empty but subsequently this was found to be incorrect. The Tsaritsa gully was the major balka, which separated the southern third of Stalingrad from the northern two-thirds of the city - it was not related to the Kurgan. [ February 09, 2007, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Melnibone ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Originally posted by Hetzer38: Make sure to check out the rest of the site's photos too! Thanks - that's a great site. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Interesting you cite 'North' as to where Chuikov had his HQ. There are no oil tanks to the north as far as I know, unless they're at the Red Barricady Ordanance Works. The Oil Tanks were to the South West of the Red October Steel Mill. You can see the Volga to the east in that photo, and the Red October Steel Mill in the North in the foreground. The Tsaritsa is in Central/Southern Stalingrad, just south of 'Red Square'. It's amazing how many reference points and items seem to conflict... Putting together Stalingrad Station 1-i was a nightmare. I had something like 60 drafts of the scenario... [ February 09, 2007, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Richie ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Agreed - South of Red October makes more sense. As you say there were oil tanks just to the south west of that. And also the main oil facility even further south which would be East of the Kurgan\South East of the Tennis Racquet. German artillery or bombers hit the oil storage tanks near Chuikov's HQ and set the oil alight 2 Oct 1942 - wherever that actually was! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 I found another goodie, a photo of the top of of Mamaev Hill after the battle. Top of Mamaev Hill ( water tanks). Arrow - first small memorial mark. Summer 1943. [Compare with the the two blue round structures on top of MK on the 3d image by Russ.] source: Russia and the Soviet Union in pictures 1900 > 2000 The watertanks seem to have been buried during the fighting, this photo claims to show part of the same spot after the battle in february 1943. Der hart umkämpfte Mamajew-Hügel, genannt "Höhe 102", nach den Kämpfen im Februar 1943. source: Privates Antiquariat Stalingrad Greetings, Hetzer38. [ February 19, 2007, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Sketch of the positions of the trapped 389. Infanterie Division on 20 January 1943 in the factory district north of Stalingrad. This sketch was made by Oberstleutnant i.G. August Dangelmaier who was Ia Officer of the 389. Infanterie Division. 1) Tractor Factory 2) Volga River 3) Red Baricade Factory 4) Infanterie Regiment 545 5) Infanterie Regiment 544 6) Infanterie Regiment 546 7) XI. Army Corps headquarters. The Corps was under command of General Strecker. 8) Chuikov’s headquarters (Red Army and defender of Stalingrad) 9) 389. Infanterie Division H.Q. Which depicts Chuikov’s HQ on the Volga by the Barrikady! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Originally posted by Melnibone: . . . 8) Chuikov’s headquarters (Red Army and defender of Stalingrad) 9) 389. Infanterie Division H.Q. Which depicts Chuikov’s HQ on the Volga by the Barrikady! And - believe it or not - I even found a picture of it! Rodimtsev and Chuykov former HQ bunkers. Stalingrad, Autumn 1943. [same source as the first pic in my previous post.] Man, this is fun! Greetings, Hetzer38. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 "By September 24 the Germans occupied most of central Stalingrad. One week later, Chuikov’s H.Q. was moved to a dugout near the Barricades Plant which was close to several oil tanks. These tanks were set ablaze by German bombers. Burning oil poured around the dugout, trapping Chuikov and his men inside it. Although encircled by flames, Chuikov had no choice but to continue his work. He kept up radio communication with his troops, despite being dazed and overwhelmed by the smoke and flames. When asked where he was, Chuikov, unsure of his own position, said “We’re where the most flames and smoke are.” 36 The fire continued for several days. Chuikov and other generals had to carry on in dugouts, holes, and trenches, often under enemy fire. They did not sleep for several days, narrowly surviving the flames and enemy fire around the dugout." http://www.lourdes.edu/Online_Narrative_History/ONH/Stalingrad.PDF. The map on the following link depicts the fueltanks in relation the Commissars house at the Barrikady: http://www.leapinghorseman.com/iof_sample3.html [ February 09, 2007, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Melnibone ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 And here's the whole (Edit - well, not really) story about Chuikov's command HQs in Staligrad: ...12th September...That evening Chuikov crossed the Volga by ferry and then travelled to his Army HQ on the Mamayev Kurgan... ... On the 14th of September he moved his HQ from the Kurgan and into the Tsaritsa Gorge... ...On the 17th of October, Chuikov moved his HQ again, this time right back to the riverbank of the Volga and here it remained until the end of the battle...So he moved his HQ three times (maybe even more often?), and John was right in saying that Chuikov had a command post (...for two days...) on MK! Damn! Now we have to find the other spot(s)as well! Cheers, Hetzer38. [ February 09, 2007, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Sun 12 Sep 1942 Yeremenko sacked the commander of the 62nd Army (Lopatin) and replaced him with Chuikov of the 64th Army (Beevor, 1999; Chuikov, 1963; Erickson, 1993, mistakenly says Chuikov was appointed on 10 Sep). That night Chuikov headed across the river into the city to find his HQ on Mamayev Kurgan, otherwise known as Hill 102 (apparently it feature some water tanks) . Incidentally Chuikov crossed at the same time as T-34s were being ferried across. 13 Sep 1942 ...The 71st Infantry Division attacked Mamayev Kurgan. South of them 76th and 295th Infantry Divisions attacked toward the Stalingrad-1 railway station and the central landing stage. (Clark says the main hospital was an objective; Beevor says the hospital was near where the Tsaritsa gully opens into the Volga, so presumably this was the same objective as the Central Landing stage). Chuikov (1963) gives the Germans only one division and 40-50 tanks in this attack, which is probably a considerable underestimate. He does, however, say the Germans brought up reserves during the day and also launched pinning attacks in the north and south. In the north a battalion attacked the Soviet brigade blocking the way to Orlovka; the attackers were wiped out. In the south individual battalions attacked the composite regiment holding the Russian line; the defenders abandoned the machine and tractor station east of Sadovaya Station. In the centre the Germans took Hill 126.3, Aviagorodok and the hospital. The central defenders were pushed back to the western edge of a wood to the west of the Barrikady and Red October settlements. German artillery shot up Chuikov's HQ on top of Mamayev Kurgan... 14 Sep 1942 By morning of 14 Sep one Soviet armoured brigade (Khopko) had only one tank (Chuikov, 1963). Two other armoured brigade already had none. They were subsequently transferred to the east bank to reform. As the German artillery had pounded Chuikov's HQ at Mamayev Kurgan the previous day, just before dawn on 14 Sep he moved it to the Tsaritsyn bunker in the Tsaritsa gully at the Pushkin Street bridge (Beevor, 1999; Chuikov, 1963; Clark, 1965; Fowler, 2005). The info above and much more detailed info about the fighting can be found at the The Stalingrad Academy of Street Fighting . Fascinating stuff! Greetings, Hetzer38. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Every indication I've read has been toward the Red October site as the alternate location of Chuikov's HQ, but Melnibone's map casts doubt on that. The Red October landing stage is the one cited as the predominant ferry landing when the central landing stage was briefly occupied by the Germans. Certainly the closest point was the Red October site... Like I said before, many sources contradict themselves. It's hard to find definitive sources... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Maybe we should change the title of this thread... Mamayev Kurgan enlightenment of the beguiled for Richie... OR, Stalingrad Nightmares for Richie... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Originally posted by Richie: Like I said before, many sources contradict themselves. It's hard to find definitive sources... It's almost as if there was a battle raging which could have caused some of the confusion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Anybody read Japanese! The linked map (nice map!) has a comment and pointer to the Barrikady Oil tanks - could say anything! http://www.fireonthevolga.com/phase003.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Originally posted by Melnibone: ...It's almost as if there was a battle raging which could have caused some of the confusion. Lol, yea, almost! 17 Sep 1942 ...During the night Chuikov moved his HQ from the Tsaritsa gully to a position on the Volga river bank, 800 m north of the Red October Factory (Beevor, 1999; Chuikov, 1963). This was an unprotect site just under some giant oil-storage tanks. The latter were assumed to be empty but subsequently this was found to be incorrect... Chuikov should know best where he was! 2 Oct 1942 ...German artillery or bombers hit the oil storage tanks near Chuikov's HQ and set the oil alight (Beevor, 1999; Erickson, 1993; Fowler, 2005)... 7 Oct 1942 ...Chuikov moved his HQ to Sarayev's now vacated dug-out on the Volga bank (Erickson, 1993)... Mon 14 Oct 1942 ...At sometime Chuikov moved his HQ again (Beevor, 1999)... 17 Oct 1942 Overnight, with the Germans approaching the Barrikady Factory, Chuikov moved his HQ yet again (Beevor, 1999; Chuikov, 1963; Erickson, 1993). They first tried the Banny gully but ended up on the river bank level with the Mamayev Kurgan... ...A strong German force broke through near Mamayev Kurgan and Chuikov's HQ but were forced back in a counter-attack (Beevor, 1999)... [Also from The Stalingrad Academy of Street Fighting . ] *sigh* So we have five Chukov commad posts in the city during the battle ? Anybody more ? Cheers, Hetzer38. [ February 09, 2007, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Take a look at this WIP screenie of Mamayev summit for CC3 Stalingrad series. Mamyev summit Doesn't look that bad! (O.k., the house-ruin doesn't really fit in...) There's also an already finished scenario showing Chuikov's HQ near the Tsaritsa river. Here you'll find a CC5 Stalingrad Mod scenario called "Mamayev", unfortunately I cannot download it...(can you?) [ February 09, 2007, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 9, 2007 Author Share Posted February 9, 2007 This is engrossing stuff, albeit somewhat embarrassing for me, in that yet again I've managed to conflate two separate data streams, creating another event which didn't happen the way I thought it did. Armed with the latest info, may I now confidently assert that had Chuikov actually had his CP in the balka I thought, a Luftwaffe strike on the tanks atop Mamayev Kurgan might've drowned him? On a more serious note, the information and pics are great, but it must've sucked to be Chuikov's HQ staff. Moving a major HQ is no picnic even in peacetime, let alone while under sustained bombardment. Regards, John Kettler [ February 09, 2007, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Edit: Originally posted by John Kettler: ...Armed with the latest info, may I now confidently assert that had Chuikov actually had his CP in the balka I thought, a Luftwaffe strike on the tanks atop Mamayev Kurgan might've drowned him?...Lol! Yea, good one! But - considering he survived all the other stuff - NO, Chui wouldn't have drowned. That guy was to tough to die in such an unspectacular way! I too find this whole theme very fascinating, I've spent the last two hours (or so) searching for more info - and it was fun! Edit-End. Here's another view of the top of the hill, taken in winter 1943. [ source ] Seems to be a Sturmgeschütz III B in front of the earth- and snow-covered water tanks... The next photo is captioned "Victorious flag at the apex of Mamaev the barrow". ( Babelfish-translation ) [ source ] . . . I've also found the (russian) Memoirs by Vasili Chuikov: Battle of a century - in which he describes his experiences during the Battle of Stalingrad. Maybe someone who's able to read russian language could have a look ? Or someone crazy enough would like to give it a try with Babelfish ? [...chapter 5 is about "Mamaev the barrow"...] Cheers, Hetzer38. [ February 09, 2007, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Bombs Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Originally posted by Richie: Maybe we should change the title of this thread... Mamayev Kurgan enlightenment of the beguiled for Richie... OR, Stalingrad Nightmares for Richie... Damn. I think we're going to have to start the whole BoB Stalingrad campaign over from scratch now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Well, Babelfish certainly has it's flaws, but here's the translation of Chuikov's memoirs of his command post on MK: ...After leaving machine, it rose on foot to the barrow, being caught in the darkness for the bushes, for some prickles. Finally long-awaited shout of the hour: - Stoy! Who goes? Control center. Ravine, freshug-dig out slots are shelters. Mamaev is barrow! Could 4 then assume that it will become the place of the highest stress it is combat for Stalingrad, that here, on this scrap will remain not one living places, neperekopannogo the explosions of projectiles and aircraft bombs... ...Krylov's Shelter. This and not shelter in a strict sense of word. Wide slot, covered by brushwood and straw. Above the brushwood and the straw to desyat'-dvadtsat' the centimeters of earthen mound. On one side of slot earthen bench, on other side earthen bed and earthen table. Overlap shudders from the explosions of projectiles. Germans already fire city and barrow. Systematic firing on the areas, yet not on the purposes. The maps are decomposed on the table. The earth falls on them... In shelter two: General Krylov with the hand receiver in the hand and on-duty telephonist Helen Bakarevich, the blue-eyed girl of the years of eighteen. Krylov with someone sharply talks. His voice sounds solidly, loudly, rasserzhenno. Bakarevich sits at the entrance with two tubes on the ears and it answers someone... ...To our control center, which was being located on the very apex of Mamaev barrow, by shower fell the mines, projectiles and bombs of enemy. I worked in one shelter with the wing and from time to time together with it it left to the stereoscopic telescope in order to control the motion of battle. Several shelters were broken, there were losses, also, in the personnel of the staff of army... Hell, at least we get an idea of how Chuikov's CP on MK looked, a dirty hole in a ravine named Krylov's Shelter, (where they made the initial planning & stuff) and how the "control center" right on top of MK looked: an even dirtier hole in the ground plastered by fire, giving a panoramic view of the battlefield. BTW, Chuikov uses a nice term for the defense of Stalingrad in his memoirs, he calls it "the attacking defense". Edit: There is no earth after the Volga for us! To the dawn on 14 September the control center of army moved into the so-called Tsaritsynskoye cave. This was the large shelter- tunnel, divided into tens of sections, ceilings and walls of which were sheathed by boards. During August the staff of Stalingrad Front was placed here. The thickness of upper earthen overlap reached ten it was meter; only bomb weighing of ton could open it, and that not everywhere. Shelter had two outputs: lower conducted to the bed of river tsarina, and upper - to Puskinskaya street. From Mamaev barrow I left together with the wing before the dawn on 14 September. Gurov left earlier... ...As the conductor around the city us accompanied the deputy chief of the armored and mechanized troops of army Lieutenant Colonel m. g. vaynrub. In the sky German night aircraft turned; with the light of fires they looked out purposes and bombed them. We scolded themselves among the ruins and the destroyed streets. Meters in five hundred from the new control center my machine was tangled in the telephone and telegraphic wires and stopped. Stopped Krylov's machine, in which was located Vaynrub. We were detained minute to three, and in this time not far from our machines were torn more than ten small bombs. Fortunately, no one of us reserve, and we satisfactorily reached the purpose. To sleep and to rest was there is no time. At the new place for me it was necessary very to verify connection, readiness of troops for the counterattack. Everything proceeded normally. Apparently, enemy troops, besides night aviation, rested or were prepared for the day actions...Well, yea, ****ty babelfish translation but interesting info and it definetly sounds like NO FUN AT ALL to move your hq around during a battle like this... Neperekopannogo, Hetzer38. [ February 09, 2007, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 Russ Schulke, site owner and creator of Fire On The Volga.com, E-mailed me and sent an informational treasure to add to our MK discussion, in the form of three photos of MK today, plus some information on Richie's "favorite" subject, MK's terracing. You are welcome to post the following pictures. I have about 200 more photos of Mamayev Kurgan but felt these would be the closest related to your discussion on the forum. http://www.fireonthevolga.com/MK-t1.JPG http://www.fireonthevolga.com/MK-t2.JPG http://www.fireonthevolga.com/MK-t3.JPG Mamayev Kurgan had no major trees on it prior to the battle and each step of the terracing is about 10-15 feet in height and about 25-30 in depth. The terracing was first constructed under the Mongol leader Mamayev (Western translation) commanding of southern forces under Genghis Khan (Western translation). Russ Schulke www.fireonthevolga.com Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 That's indeed an informational treasure! Thank a lot to Russ Schulke for the info and the great photos and to you John for sharing the info! Gheers, Hetzer38. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Hetzer38, You're welcome, but will Richie ever talk to me again?! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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