MG-42 Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Hi All, Firstly allow me to congratulate Comrade Biltong and his "Band of Brothers" on completion of a project that obviously has taken an incredible amount of time, effort and dedication (**TED** - a self created timesaving acronym I've created as I'm sure I'm going to use this words again during the course of this commentary ) to complete. I am in no doubt that this has been a gargantuan labour of love. However, in my opinion, an equal amount of **TED** has to be expelled in order to fully indoctrinate the system..I know...I know..I'm jumping to conclusions before even trying it for myself Well I have read the rules to some extent (during a laborious train journey) and am somewhat intrigued to the level that I'm seriously thinking about expending the required **TED** to learn this but wanted to know first what others people experience of Biltong's rules are and if it vastly improves the CM:BB experience. Kindest regards MG P.S. See told you I'd use the **TED** acronym more then once..what a labour saving device..ohh I'd better copyright that **TED**©..there we go [ February 26, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: MG-42 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Playing -any- game is a waste of time! That's why we do it. As to BCR, I spend more time just setting up my guys at the start of the battle than I do rolling on the BCR table. Especially now that CMBB randomly sorts my guys before battle. Aaron 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I would certainly agree that much TED went into the develoment of Biltong's Campaign Rules. It fills an important need in an otherwise outstanding game. However, in attempting to follow the process religiously, I became somewhat confused, perplexed, baffled, and befuddled. To prevent my gaming experience from duplicating my work experience, I decided to slim down... and this time I'm keeping it off! So I decided to run with 20% of the rules for 80% of the fun. I am managing a kampfgruppe through their 2nd year in Russia. I track their experience using some rules that were orginially derived from Biltong's Campaign System. I also add additional leadership qualifiers based on experience. I have also significantly simplified (read eliminated) the auxiliary force determination process. With pre-made maps and the unit import feature, it has been working great! Most of my kampfgruppe are veterans now with a smattering of crack and regulars. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 We worked on the rules beacuse it is something we were interested in because we wanted to do it for our own use. Having put in the effort we considered it worthwhile to make the work available to the community and there have been hundreds of downloads and a lot of positive feedback. As with many tabletop wargaming rule sets there is a fair bit to do and they do take a bit of getting used to, but once you are familiar with the bits you like to use it takes less than a couple of minutes to speed through them. Such rule sets are clearly designed for people who enjoy having a degree of the control of their game handed over to and determined by external factors, rather than their own preference (which led to me playing almost the same type of game with the same type of units nearly all the time). Many also like the feeling of continuity you get with the same units being involved. Some like it because they prefer AI play and the rules do lead to that being made tougher. Others like them because they're a change. Quite simple in the end though, if you don't like 'em - don't use 'em. [ February 26, 2003, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Apache ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG-42 Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by Apache: It's quite simple really though, if you don't like 'em - don't use 'em. Apache, Please the last thing I want to do is to possibly offend anyone. That is the last thing on my mind. I hold you guys on a pedestal along with our illustrious mod-makers and only a rung below the Battlefront demigods. My intention is solely to get a feel for the system before diving in with both feet which i probably will do Kindest Regards and muc hrespect MG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 MG42. No problem and no offence taken. The question posed by the thread is however perhaps a little more provocative than it needs to be (IMHO). In fact I was probably editing my post as you typed in your response. My problem for not reading it through enough before going to Defcon 1 Give them a try. First time I saw them, before becoming a team member so to speak, I thought no way! Even the first 3-4 times I wasn't sure. Now, piece of cake, don't even need to look at the rules for much now. I play both sets BCR and my own variant, BCRAV. I have to say I wouldn't consider AI play any other way. [ February 26, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Apache ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 In any case, Biltaid, is a week or two away from final release dramatically reducing the amount of TED required. In fact, you could probably take an ordinary Joe off the street and he'll be Biltonging intuitively along in no time. And yes, the Biltong rules are a blast and in my humble opinion the average Biltong battle is more fun than the average e-mail game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk-vfa201 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Originally posted by Peterk: In any case, Biltaid, is a week or two away from final release dramatically reducing the amount of TED required. In fact, you could probably take an ordinary Joe off the street and he'll be Biltonging intuitively along in no time. And yes, the Biltong rules are a blast and in my humble opinion the average Biltong battle is more fun than the average e-mail game. Heya Peter Not that I am an average Joe (being playing CM from CMBO demo on) but Biltaid is as a blast as the Biltong Rules. And the set of maps available with Biltong is amazing. No comparison with playing the QB generated map. Using the Biltong is better than playing an Operation scenario which last the whole bloody war!!! Biltaid allows me to be amazingly fast in going through the rules results, automatically compute the results, get my setup for the next battle, inject AAR to get an update on my Battle group and support/attached units, start the next battle. Time to do that? maybe 30 seconds at most. Moreover, if you are as lucky as I am to have BOTH a TiBook and a desktop you will have the Biltaid running on the OS X machine and CMBB QB parameters on the G3: I do not even need to print the Biltaid results to input CMBB next battle. Finally: PETER!!!!!!!! Give me an update!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Hi Seahawk, Glad you like it. Thanks for testing! The update? Estimated time of arrival for 1st official release is...TOMORROW! Wait 'til you see all the cool stuff I added in the last 2 weeks. p. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk-vfa201 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 COOL, you mailed me I will be able to Load prevoius battles so to have a smooth continuation. BTW, I updated my OS X Java to 1.4.1 so don't be afraid to put in whatever Java stuff you like 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 When I was first directed towards BCR by Apache (some time ago) I was unsure if it was something I'd use .... It looked good but there seemed to be lots of post-battle counting to be done and the rules were still being subject to the teams **TED** so were constantly changing. :confused: So I just sat and became a BCR spectator, watching what was going on. Now they are finnished it is clear that the majority of effort required to use BCR is only required for the first game and soon settles down. I am only just in the process of learning the rules, but the instructions given are clear and easy enough to understand .... I have to admit that filling out the sheets for the first time seemed to take ages ... but after that it all becomes much clearer - In other words, dont just judge BCR by reading the rules ... get the sheets filled in and it becomes a whole lot more intuitive. I have also seen the beta of PeterK's excellent looking BiltAid tool and am looking forward to the full release. :cool: If the BCR teams efforts were a waste of time then nobody will use the rules ..... but I'll be using them and judging by the number of downloads from the sit, so are many others .... MG - - give them a try, then give them a second try ... after that you will be a BCR convert Lou2000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 > you mailed me I will be able to Load prevoius > battles so to have a smooth continuation. Not quite but yes, you can continue. You'll have to go through a little wizard to enter the data from your old campaign manually (should take 2 minutes or so) . I decided not to support the old beta save files...too dangerous. But this also means that anyone with a paper campaign in progress can continue on with Biltaid no matter where they are. ...personal opinion. I think you should start over anyways. You've been getting off much too easy without the immediate counterattack/followups that were missing in the demo. Biltong's supposed to be HARD! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk-vfa201 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Originally posted by Peterk: You'll have to go through a little wizard to enter the data from your old campaign manually (should take 2 minutes or so) Fine, not a problem. ..personal opinion. I think you should start over anyways. You've been getting off much too easy without the immediate counterattack/followups that were missing in the demo. Biltong's supposed to be HARD! ARRGH: you mean I am not going to be invited to Berlin anymore? OK, I will follow your suggestion and start allover but today's is Saturday: shall I wait till TOMORROW for the release!!!!!????? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Since you were such a helpful tester, I'll see if I can do better than tomorrow just for you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk-vfa201 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Great Peter: My finger is already tired from hitting the "Get Mail" icon some 40 times per minute 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk-vfa201 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Are the followup and counterattack which are now present modify the battle setup and/or force composition for the allied? I kept all the AAR for my first three battles: maybe I might simply re-enter the values for the battles I fought and the release 1.0 will then compute more realistic improvements to my units allowing me to fight the 4th battle directly? Or I misunderstood? From the Biltaid shell output it looks like those are a post-battle adjustments, from my log: checkIfAlliedCounterattack() random number = 8 roll adjustment -1 random number adjusted for date= 7 random number adjusted for battle result= 7 allied counterattack = None calculateLossLevel() battle group casualties = 11 battle group total men = 144 lossLevelPercent = 7.638888888888889 Loss level = Light Random Number = 5 checkIfAxisImmediateAttack() randomNumber = 5 roll adjustment 1 randomNumber adjusted for date = 6 randomNumber adjusted for battle result = 6 roll adjustment 1 randomNumber adjusted for loss level = 7 roll adjustment -2 randomNumber adjusted for dusk = 5 axisImmediateAttack = None Random Number = 2 getAttachedUnits randomNumber = 2 randomNumber adjusted for battle results= 2 randomNumber adjusted for Axis immediate attack= 2 randomNumber adjusted for time of day= 2 roll adjustment -1 randomNumber adjusted for temperature= 1 randomNumber adjusted for weather= 1 attached units = 0 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javaslinger Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Billtaid??? The long awaited Java manager for Billtong? Tommorow?? Is that right?? Oh god, someone get me my nitro pills!! Javaslinger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Hi Seahawk, The reason I'm suggesting you start over is that you haven't been given enough battles with the old version of Biltaid. The first few days of Barbarossa typically make you fight several times a day and weraing your guys down very quickly. I don't want you to miss out on all that fun! The only way to do it properly is to go back to the beginning. The counter-attack function was in the demo version and got called but it was a dummy and didn't actually do anything. Jeez, sharp eyes - can't hide anything from you guys. It's slow going tonight - I don't know if I'll be able to get something out early. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenm Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 I have procrastinated playing game 10 in 1941 because I spent my free time last week watching all 12 episodes of Band of Brothers rented from Blockbuster. I peeked at the Biltong rules for 1942, man what a difference. I'll be leading a pretty large armor group with a large infintry contingent. A large, well balanced group. Question for Biltong?? What is the reason for upsizing all in 1942? Is it because the 1942 battles involved more troops? Is more troops for the axis an offset to things like higher casualty rates, lower ammo%? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by kenm: I have procrastinated playing game 10 in 1941 because I spent my free time last week watching all 12 episodes of Band of Brothers rented from Blockbuster. I peeked at the Biltong rules for 1942, man what a difference. I'll be leading a pretty large armor group with a large infintry contingent. A large, well balanced group. Question for Biltong?? What is the reason for upsizing all in 1942? Is it because the 1942 battles involved more troops? Is more troops for the axis an offset to things like higher casualty rates, lower ammo%? Hi Kenm, A campaign is a story and every story has a beginning, middle and end. The most important part (arguably) being the end. A story/movie/opera/campaign must end with a bang! I hope to end with a bang in Berlin, but in the meanwhile the plot must evolve and become more interesting Each year your Battle Group will improve – mostly due to normal upgrades of armor that actually happened in that year, so that when we get to 45 we’ll have a formidable, but realistic force to deal with those hordes of Soviets storming our beloved capital city. Once again, like with the Task Force and Attached Units, you will receive (and also lose) a variety of units – this time being tank hunters & vehicles – so that you get to know those units very well over a period of 20+ battles. At the end of this 5 year campaign you should be a veteran or better with most of the common units. That is one of BCR's goals 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk-vfa201 Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Peterk: Hi Seahawk, The reason I'm suggesting you start over is that you haven't been given enough battles with the old version of Biltaid. The first few days of Barbarossa typically make you fight several times a day and weraing your guys down very quickly. I don't want you to miss out on all that fun! The only way to do it properly is to go back to the beginning. :eek: I did not realize what I missed!!! You got me! I am sending all previous battles to /dev/null The counter-attack function was in the demo version and got called but it was a dummy and didn't actually do anything. Jeez, sharp eyes - can't hide anything from you guys. It's slow going tonight - I don't know if I'll be able to get something out early. Don't worry mate. Whenever it comes I have a great Glenmorangie 1975 to celebrate with 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk-vfa201 Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Biltong: A campaign is a story and every story has a beginning, middle and end. The most important part (arguably) being the end. A story/movie/opera/campaign must end with a bang! I hope to end with a bang in Berlin, but in the meanwhile the plot must evolve and become more interesting Each year your Battle Group will improve ? mostly due to normal upgrades of armor that actually happened in that year, so that when we get to 45 we?ll have a formidable, but realistic force to deal with those hordes of Soviets storming our beloved capital city. Once again, like with the Task Force and Attached Units, you will receive (and also lose) a variety of units ? this time being tank hunters & vehicles ? so that you get to know those units very well over a period of 20+ battles. At the end of this 5 year campaign you should be a veteran or better with most of the common units. That is one of BCR's goals Oh My Biltong!!! That is a HELL OF A GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!! You are the best thing coming to CMBB after CMBB itself. I'd happily have it integrated into a paid CM3 option should Steve & Co. think about integrating it (with Biltaid of course ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201: ....I'd happily have it integrated into a paid CM3 option should Steve & Co. think about integrating it (with Biltaid of course ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 > ....I'd happily have it integrated into a paid > CM3 option Did I mention Biltaid will be shareware??? It costs 50$ to get off June 22, 1941. That's why I'm so late..I'm setting up the credit-card thingie! Just joking. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Peter-where will Biltaid be posted when done? Thanks to Biltong,and all involved for this great system-and Peter for condensing it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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