Bone_Vulture Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Originally posted by Soddball: Trench as opposed to foxhole - big gains in survivability.Unlike trenches, foxholes are usually only spotted once the occupant opens fire. Trenches are visible from afar, and often attract pre-emptive bombardment, or are at least blinded with smoke. So if you're aiming for the advantage of ambush, trenches are out of the question. Originally posted by Sergei: Ever heard of these: ? Nothing can spare the guns from the horror that are field mortars, save dumb luck - either in the form of really bad bombardment, or poorly concealed enemy mortar team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: Unlike trenches, foxholes are usually only spotted once the occupant opens fire. Trenches are visible from afar, and often attract pre-emptive bombardment, or are at least blinded with smoke. So if you're aiming for the advantage of ambush, trenches are out of the question. Not quite sure i agree with this. Yes, trenches are easily spotted if they are not in good coverage. I almost never put my trenches in anything besides woods or tall pines. Also you need to make sure the entire trench is in cover. Occupying trenches is also the best cover in the game(exposure percentage), even better when it's in woods/tall pines. Now i'm pretty sure your exposure percentage to a given enemy target also influences when and how easily you get spotted. Not just how much shooting your doing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Originally posted by MeatEtr: Now i'm pretty sure your exposure percentage to a given enemy target also influences when and how easily you get spotted. Not just how much shooting your doing. To my knwoledge, the biggest factor is the gun's caliber / general size. A measly 20mm flak can dish out many salvos at the distance before being spotted; a 75mm Pak is likely to be spotted from the second round, or it'll give a sound contact close enough to attract mortar fire. And in my opinion, trenchs are still way too easily spotted to be useful in ambush role. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treadgrease Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 I'm sorry guys, been doing some testing, and the ai spotting routine is boooooogus I have two pics to show what I mean (tried posting them here, but always to small of size, hard to see). Be glad to email them to anyone. Anyway, Michael Dorosh's GD scenario, "Detraining at Lodz" Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope. Magnifying to 16x, *I* couldn't see a single pixel of the at gun from either tank. Man, I love this game, but this really throws a wrench into it for me. [ November 11, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: treadgrease ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by treadgrease: Anyway, Michael Dorosh's GD scenario, "Detraining at Lodz" Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope.So the gun was also hiding, and the mission was not meeting engagement? (The gun had the camouflage bonus)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leopard_2 Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Heck, does it matter? At 800m, you don't see anything in woods if it doesn't move - and especially not from a buttoned-up tank... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_no_one Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by MeatEtr: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: Unlike trenches, foxholes are usually only spotted once the occupant opens fire. Trenches are visible from afar, and often attract pre-emptive bombardment, or are at least blinded with smoke. So if you're aiming for the advantage of ambush, trenches are out of the question. Not quite sure i agree with this. Yes, trenches are easily spotted if they are not in good coverage. I almost never put my trenches in anything besides woods or tall pines. Also you need to make sure the entire trench is in cover. Occupying trenches is also the best cover in the game(exposure percentage), even better when it's in woods/tall pines. Now i'm pretty sure your exposure percentage to a given enemy target also influences when and how easily you get spotted. Not just how much shooting your doing. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by treadgrease: Anyway, Michael Dorosh's GD scenario, "Detraining at Lodz" Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope.So the gun was also hiding, and the mission was not meeting engagement? (The gun had the camouflage bonus)? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by treadgrease: I'm sorry guys, been doing some testing, and the ai spotting routine is boooooogus I have two pics to show what I mean (tried posting them here, but always to small of size, hard to see). Be glad to email them to anyone. Anyway, Michael Dorosh's GD scenario, "Detraining at Lodz" Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope. Magnifying to 16x, *I* couldn't see a single pixel of the at gun from either tank. Man, I love this game, but this really throws a wrench into it for me. I ran a test myself: Two soviet t-34M43 late on a flat map (about 800m long). At the other end one 50mm AT gun, german in woods, two tiles thick. Both regular quality. FOW=extreme. Ran the test twice: Once as german, i just kept my gun hiding and the t34's didn't spot me until i open fire, in fact the 34's didn't spot even spot when i unhide (ranges 500-800m). Second time as soviets, trying to find the AT gun. Didn't spot it until my 34's were standing next to it. They were unbuttoned all the time. I wonder what settings did you use? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by treadgrease: Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope. Savegame, screenshot? I don't believe you, this is nonsense. Maybe you screwed up and accidentally placed the gun in open ground right next to the woods. Magnifying to 16x, *I* couldn't see a single pixel of the at gun from either tank. The spotting routines are of course entirely seperate from the graphical representation, this doesn't mean anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by no_one: Trenches in woods and trees are not too good of an idea.Tree burst arty will negate any benefit you would get from having them in the woods/trees. Trenches can easily be used for ambushes when in the right type of concealment.Summer wheatfields and steppe will make it so that the trenches remain unspotted up to around 250m,and depending on the spotting conditions(i.e. day or night,or bad weather)you may not spot them until you are right on top of them. Well of course treebursts will be a problem. As with most everything, there are positives and negatives. But in good coverage(woods/pines), more than likely, you won't be attracting any mortar/arty until you start shooting. If you put them in wheatfields or steppe then they will get spotted much easier, compared to woods/pines. Then probably get the attention of mortars and arty before the troops inside fire a single shot. Yes, no treebursts to worry about, but still. Originally posted by treadgrease: I'm sorry guys, been doing some testing, and the ai spotting routine is boooooogus Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope. I don't buy it either. Something ain't right with your tests. Simply put, no tanks, buttoned or unbuttoned, will spot any gun(non-fired) hiding in good/wood/tallpines coverage. Unless of course maybe the gun is on the very outer edge of the cover tile and the tank is practically on top of it. [ November 12, 2004, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: MeatEtr ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treadgrease Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by Impudent Warwick: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by treadgrease: Anyway, Michael Dorosh's GD scenario, "Detraining at Lodz" Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope.So the gun was also hiding, and the mission was not meeting engagement? (The gun had the camouflage bonus)? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treadgrease Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by Redwolf: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by treadgrease: Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope. Savegame, screenshot? I don't believe you, this is nonsense. Maybe you screwed up and accidentally placed the gun in open ground right next to the woods. Magnifying to 16x, *I* couldn't see a single pixel of the at gun from either tank. The spotting routines are of course entirely seperate from the graphical representation, this doesn't mean anything. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treadgrease Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by MeatEtr: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by no_one: Trenches in woods and trees are not too good of an idea.Tree burst arty will negate any benefit you would get from having them in the woods/trees. Trenches can easily be used for ambushes when in the right type of concealment.Summer wheatfields and steppe will make it so that the trenches remain unspotted up to around 250m,and depending on the spotting conditions(i.e. day or night,or bad weather)you may not spot them until you are right on top of them. Well of course treebursts will be a problem. As with most everything, there are positives and negatives. But in good coverage(woods/pines), more than likely, you won't be attracting any mortar/arty until you start shooting. If you put them in wheatfields or steppe then they will get spotted much easier, compared to woods/pines. Then probably get the attention of mortars and arty before the troops inside fire a single shot. Yes, no treebursts to worry about, but still. Originally posted by treadgrease: I'm sorry guys, been doing some testing, and the ai spotting routine is boooooogus Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope. I don't buy it either. Something ain't right with your tests. Simply put, no tanks, buttoned or unbuttoned, will spot any gun(non-fired) hiding in good/wood/tallpines coverage. Unless of course maybe the gun is on the very outer edge of the cover tile and the tank is practically on top of it. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by treadgrease: Lol, you two are too much. Give me your addy, and I'll send you two screenshots if you're so concerned. Otherwise, buzz off, and quit accusing me of lieing (I won't even bother asking you why that even occurs to you) Because i don't know, they play the game and have been ambushed plenty of times guns, or something silly like actually running a test to see for themselves. People have been playing this game for over two three years now, if it was possible, do you think you were the first to spot it? But then again i might be wrong, just send a savegame to one of them or me for that matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Treadgrease, at ease. No-one accuses you of lying, just that your finding is something that hasn't occured to the rest of us, despite of all the hundreds or thousands of matches that we've played combined. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treadgrease Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: Treadgrease, at ease. No-one accuses you of lying, just that your finding is something that hasn't occured to the rest of us, despite of all the hundreds or thousands of matches that we've played combined. k, fair enough, thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Originally posted by treadgrease: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MeatEtr: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by no_one: Trenches in woods and trees are not too good of an idea.Tree burst arty will negate any benefit you would get from having them in the woods/trees. Trenches can easily be used for ambushes when in the right type of concealment.Summer wheatfields and steppe will make it so that the trenches remain unspotted up to around 250m,and depending on the spotting conditions(i.e. day or night,or bad weather)you may not spot them until you are right on top of them. Well of course treebursts will be a problem. As with most everything, there are positives and negatives. But in good coverage(woods/pines), more than likely, you won't be attracting any mortar/arty until you start shooting. If you put them in wheatfields or steppe then they will get spotted much easier, compared to woods/pines. Then probably get the attention of mortars and arty before the troops inside fire a single shot. Yes, no treebursts to worry about, but still. Originally posted by treadgrease: I'm sorry guys, been doing some testing, and the ai spotting routine is boooooogus Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope. I don't buy it either. Something ain't right with your tests. Simply put, no tanks, buttoned or unbuttoned, will spot any gun(non-fired) hiding in good/wood/tallpines coverage. Unless of course maybe the gun is on the very outer edge of the cover tile and the tank is practically on top of it. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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