Impossible to beat Jagermeister

[NameUsedBefore]

I've played this scenario a few times now as the Russians (haven't played as Germans yet) and so far as I can tell it's impossible to win.

The most success I had was this:

Took a platoon and flanked all the way around the woods to the west of your starting position. I got them to eventually conflict the middle flags by the end of the game. I ended up having one.

ANY tank or group of tanks (simultaneously) that decide to go over the hill in the middle of the map are instantly blown apart. IS-2's are constantly destroyed by Panthers and my tanks literally couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I believe the Germans have multiple Panthers and a Tiger or two. They also have a few guns in the woods on their side of the map.

My real problem is that I only have 30+ turns to complete the map... about 30 less turns then I'd like. I got the game to go to 35 turns while contesting the middle-flags with the flanking platoon. The two IS-2's and three SU-122's that were helping along the platoon's right flank were taken out of business once the Panthers rolled into their view. They simply couldn't hit the Panthers, and the Panthers would almost always hit them. (They had a 20% hit chance... pretty damn low if you ask me)

The problem is this: the hill in the middle. There's little cover there, and anything to the right or left flanks is blanketed by trees making tank movement rough. So the only real place is to go over the hill with the tanks. However even if I did so with all the tanks simulataneously they'd all go over, then it'd become a mess. Most would start reversing immediately, others would try to fight but their utterly terrible aiming would get them killed. Everybody was mince meat.

In a last ditch effort I tried a nearly-company-sized 'human wave' to the church. The cluster was blown apart by a few Panthers. After that the Panthers moved to their side of the hill, and my tanks to mine. Nobody moved and most of the action was with my flanking platoon.

Is it possible to win this scenario as the Russians? You're supposed to attack, yet everything is against you. Sucky tank crewman and terrain incredibly fit for defending. Plus the complete and total lack of given time doesn't help at all. Is this just not a well-made scenario or am I doing something wrong...?

[Mad Russian]

Where would one find this marvel of design work? You never mention where you got the scenario.

[Sergei]

It's on the CD.

[Bonxa]

Trust me, you can win this as the soviets.

There is a topic on this battle in the Tips & Tricks forum where JasonC lays out some fine tactics for you. Check that out.

[JasonC]

"anything to the right or left flanks is blanketed by trees making tank movement rough."

Yeah. So? Isn't rough to move through decidedly better than fatal?

"So the only real place is to go over the hill with the tanks."

Does not follow. Go left initially, as far as the road. Go through the scattered tree portion of those woods. Yes, drive your tanks right through the scattered trees, all of them. On move, to reduce bog risk.

Then go for the central mass of woods *with infantry leading*. Lean more on your infantry, don't expect your tanks to wipe out the defense in straight ahead slugging. Let half squads be the first to see the cats, not your best tanks.

The tanks should throw HE, area fire, at any probable target ahead of the infantry. Don't wait for spots. AFVs that die with HE aboard count as losses, AFVs that have already fired off their loads with effect count only as trades.

Shells first, infantry second, tanks third and last. Right through the middle. You can peek around the left end of the central LOS block with a shoot-and-scoot guy or two on occasion. You can have someone back in the set up zone shoot and scoot back and forth in the trees there, when and only when you see cats in the "brush alley" all facing the wrong way (because of all of the above).

You want differential LOS, not integrated LOS. If you move anything to a spot 4 Panthers can see, 25 rounds come your way per minute and any one of them kills. He only needs 10% hit chances to kill 2 tanks a minute, you can't afford that. But a single Panther that barely has LOS and currently has its turret faced 60 degrees off true? That you can do.

So screw ease of movement, muck the LOS lines to heck, and go right through the woods.

[NameUsedBefore]

So basically just do what I did again, except with more forces? I sent two IS-2's and 3 SU's but they all got blasted. I only sent one platoon of infantry, however, on the far left-flank. I guess I should send more of just everything. I destroyed most of the buildings before the platoon moved in.

My problem is still: time to capture what I need and get set-up; and the fact my tanks have terrible crews that have SUB-PAR hit-percentages facing up against far superior Germans who hit almost every other time (if not every time). I once had three tanks locked on a Panther; all shots missed, Panther destroyed two tanks, one at at time (all the while my guys still missing), then I fled my third tank (SU') which eventually was abandoned (had lost a crewmember to a 'schreck early in the battle).

Question: the FO's I have, when I first used them at my first crack at the scenario I did so at the first (repeat...) turn. There was a "FIRING PLAN" signal at their orders box. I could no re-coordinate the 76's or the other cannon. The second time through I decided to wait to use 'em; except when I did the wait time was substantial; 14 and 6 minutes (out of LOS due to that bugging hill). Can someone explain this...?

[JasonC]

If you fire them turn 1, you are using "map fire", a coordinated and timed barrage rather than the FO on the map calling out targets he sees. You can delay the turn of arrival by pressing "Q" - 1 minute delay each time. The whole ammo load will be fired at the designated target, at the designated time, and will always be accurate. No LOS necessary. Also doesn't matter what happens to the FO in the meantime, the barrage will always land.

If instead you wait for turn 2 or later, you get "called fire". The FO needs LOS to the aim point or the mission will be off by up to 200 meters, not something you want. Long delays, particularly for higher echelon Russians. Only way to use those is to call them on a likely location 5 minutes before anybody even gets close. Small adjusts bump the time by several minutes, but let you walk the aim point around.

As for "just doing the same", no. I said lean on your infantry and send it first, that is entirely different from relying on 5 tanks to shoot one platoon in to the objective. I said take the whole central mass of woods, not go around the left end of them.

As for dueling Panthers, duh, you don't. Numbers have nothing to do with it, it is a superior AFV. Wrap your head around it. Do you duel StuGs frontally with T-34Cs? You do not. You don't duel Panthers frontally with anything. They have twice your rate of fire and higher accuracy and kill through every plate while only half of yours will. You start a duel down 5 to 1, not down 20% or something.

Their weakness is the turret is slow and only points one direction at a time. And you can mask your own slow ROF weakness by using shoot and scoot to enter LOS, fire all of once, and get back out of LOS instantly, before they turn and track you. To do this, you need teamwork, both with the infantry scouting for them (and occasionally distracting them by drawing their fire), and with other vehicles. And not another one right next to you, which will just get two killed at a time if he is facing the right way, but somebody with a large angular separation.

Also, your strongest suit is the HE power of your tanks. The German's weakest, if you make full use of that, is his infantry, not his armor. Blow up every position. Make his tanks hunt to get LOS to yours. And then take out the foremost one, only, from multiple angles. They are perfectly killable. The one thing that never ever ever works is going head to head with them, and that is all you have tried.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Sergei:

It's on the CD.

It's one of Runes scenarios. That explains everything... :eek:

[NameUsedBefore]

I meant I took that platoon on the extreme left of the flank leaving the IS-2's and the SU's in the field between the trees to blast the outlying houses. The infantry entered themselves. I had three tanks shooting down a very slim firing lane that one Panther happened to enter. I hoped to bust it open from the side... alas, the tankers all missed in the saddest display of "accuracy" I have seen so far.

Infantry led all advances I made. Problem was I only put one platoon into that flank. I had weighed putting the others straight up the middle to make the 100m across to the forest-line near the church. That bid failed as I did it by the time the Germans had moved their tanks up. All the tanks accompanying the platoon did was guard it for about half-way, released it, then sat in firing lanes to hit the Panthers from the side (which failed, even with near-perfect set up).

The platoon did quite a bit of damage. Captured one of the flags and left the other to the good ol' "?" mark. After such brilliant success with so small of a force, I figured even just one more platoon would instantly get me that entire middle-sector.

[Guest Mike]

I've played it from both sides, vs human and AI - beaten the AI both ways, won as German vs human once.

It's a challenging game for sure, especially if you're not familiar with how the Tactical AI handles JS-2's vs German heavy tanks!

[JasonC]

NUB - the Russians get 8 platoons. They just don't all start on the map. It is not a matter of sending 2 instead of 1. They also get 18 AFVs, half of them IS-2s. The Germans have only 18 infantry type units able to fight infantry, meaning squads or HMGs. If the Russian AFVs tossing their mega HE break even a squad apiece, the Russian infantry rolls over the position. The way you lost was getting most of your armor killed trying to crest the ridge on the right into superior AFV firepower, not from bad luck.

[NameUsedBefore]

Again, that was on the first attempt when I didn't even know the Germans we're going to have heavy armour.

On my SECOND try I didn't even crest the hill. I put three tanks into a slim firing range in the valley between all the tree-lines. They all fired their shots before the Panther even turned his turret all the way; they all missed. Panther destroys one. Remaining two fire their last shots before one is downed and another escapes the scene. The platoon, which slowly flanked around the village, was so efficient in taking or at least "?'ing" the two middle flags, I figured even just one extra platoon would do the job.

On the second attempt I had only five tanks go with the platoon, flattening a few buildings. The rest of my tanks sat just behind the crest.

I still consider it bad luck to have the perfect angle on a Panther and have all of your tanks miss over and over again.

[JasonC]

You never want to stay there for a second shot, so no that was not luck, it was not knowing Russian slow-reload tactics. You shoot and scoot to fire from a short halt, and then break LOS. If all three miss and aren't fast getting out of LOS, maybe he gets one - that is the most bad luck can do to you. If you stay there for a second round, he gets off 3 in the meantime.

[NameUsedBefore]

No... I set up very slim firing lanes. The plan was to bush-wack the Panther from the side. The Panther never knew my tanks were there till they fired. I figured such a gifting set-up would give them time to aim and land hits.

The Panther, after the misses, killed one tank at the end of that minute. The next minute I had them fleeing, they fired as they reversed; Panther tagged the second tank and the third barely managed to get away. It was set up as an ambush; it was executed well except for the whole accuracy part. I basically over-estimated the crew-man and their ability to hit an unaware target. If I knew that they would be lame-shots then I definitely would've prepared the shoot-and-scoots.

Lesson learned,

[Guest Mike]

The IS-2 is a lame-duck anti-tank unit - it is lucky to get 2 shots a turn - that's how it is whether you're fighting Panthers of Mk-4's.

getting 3 1st shots vs a target is no guarantee of hitting it - regardless of the guns you're using.

It also has marginal armour, so Mk 4's can often kill it at moderate ranges (say 750m) - you should know this before you use it, and therefore not put it in an AT role unless you have MASSIVE superiority in numbers - 3:1 isn't enough - try 6 or more :1

[NameUsedBefore]

The IS-2 armor "grades" looked so promising... damn. That cannon is a shocker, though. It decimated all infantry I used it against.

[Guest Mike]

Yes it's a fabulous tank to assault infantry with - the armour is proof against small AT guns (which essentialy means the 50mm) at all ranges and the Pak 40 at long-ish range, so the best use of it is to stand back and deliver 122mm HE shells to where they are needed most!

[chiavarm]

After reading this thread I decided to try this Scenario last night and I loved it.

I lined up four of the JS-2 to the right of the house just behind the crest of the hill.

Using the Shoot and scoot command and target (at the time two panthers were visible) I would crest the hill and occupy the attention of the panthers while the rest of my force advanced to the left behind the woods. I lost one JS-2 here but got two Panthers. I kept this up until another panther appeared and then came the Tigers. By this time the rest of the force was behind the woods and just destroying to infantry there. I lost a SU-122 to a panzerskeik unit.

A panther and tiger tried to come up my right but two of my JS-2 s took them out with flank shots.

Here were two tigers in the field behind the once large building (I took it down with a JS-2 screened behind woods on the right) and a panther in the field to the right.

I tried to move two JS-2 down the road through the wood but one of the Js-2 tried to take on the two tigers and lost. The second JS-2 had a narrow LOS to one of the tigers and took it out.

Once I was in the woods, The Germans had nothing in position to stop me from taking the two large Flags in the center of the map.

The AAR

Axis Allied

Men OK 118 350

Total cas. 134 39

Kia 30 11

Gun Des. 1

Veh Des 7 4

Flags 100 700

764 2372

22% 78%

[chiavarm]

After reading this thread I decided to try this Scenario last night and I loved it.

I lined up four of the JS-2 to the right of the house just behind the crest of the hill.

Using the Shoot and scoot command and target (at the time two panthers were visible) I would crest the hill and occupy the attention of the panthers while the rest of my force advanced to the left behind the woods. I lost one JS-2 here but got two Panthers. I kept this up until another panther appeared and then came the Tigers. By this time the rest of the force was behind the woods and just destroying to infantry there. I lost a SU-122 to a panzerskeik unit.

A panther and tiger tried to come up my right but two of my JS-2 s took them out with flank shots.

Here were two tigers in the field behind the once large building (I took it down with a JS-2 screened behind woods on the right) and a panther in the field to the right.

I tried to move two JS-2 down the road through the wood but one of the Js-2 tried to take on the two tigers and lost. The second JS-2 had a narrow LOS to one of the tigers and took it out.

Once I was in the woods, The Germans had nothing in position to stop me from taking the two large Flags in the center of the map.

***The AAR**

Axis Allied

Men OK 118 350

Total cas. 134 39

Kia 30 11

Gun Des. 1

Veh Des 7 4

Flags 100 700

764 2372

22% 78%

[NameUsedBefore]

^ Strange. Everytime I crested that hill my tank(s/ if I did it simultaneously) would usually shoot (miss), then get blown apart before it could sneak back away. Also all the Germans tanks would come into that big field pretty much together and not one or so at a time.

[stikkypixie]

He got lucky probably, or he only snuck up when he knew the tigers/panthers were looking the other way.

[chiavarm]

It work qute nicely. By the time the Panthers changed targets the JS-2 was scooting back.

Mind you I did this approx 4-5 turns to occupy the panthers so as to move the troops and armor behind the woods in the center of the map.

I lost 1 JS-2 of the four that were engaging the Panthers and did knock out two of the Panthers.

I stopped this once the Tigers got involved ant there was still another Panther. Plus I did not want to use all of my AP ammo on such low percentage shots. Two hits out of approx 20 is not good IMO. Is That Lucky?

Don't crest the hill with all your tanks at the same time. Stagger them so as to prevent easy targeting. IIRC the Panther and Tiger have slow turrets.

[NameUsedBefore]

The only time I did show my tanks was when they were occupied with other targets or I was planning to hit them from the side. I think I simply didn't have any luck, period. I don't even remember having landed any of my shots, actually.

[JasonC]

Since in my opinion you are only interested in excusing yourself, NUB, not in the scenario, I for one am no longer interested.

[NameUsedBefore]

What?

I'm just talking about what happened. Whenever I get the chance I'm going to play the scenario again and just hope for better luck. What am I supposed to do about my guys missing every damn shot they take? Especially on a then-unaware target? Hell I did a lot of what everyone has said they did, yet none of it worked out for me. My tanks got blistered and failed to land enough (if any) shots on the opposing tanks themselves.