dorsey Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 I did a quick battle against the AI, I was the Germans assaulting the Soviets with a 100% bonus. I brought 1 Tiger, and 2 Panzer IIIs. The Panzer IIIs got knocked out, and towards the end I was running out of time and my infantry was pinned down. Being desperate, I just threw my Tiger forward. Ended up surviving, and took out about 7 vehicles, 4 guns, and killed about 100 infantry. That seemed a wee bit silly. Does anyone else see this as a problem, and if so do you play with house rules of "no Tigers?" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athlete Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 I would say no. Certainly not an exploit...Tigers can be had from the flanks, and you have a lot of points tied up in them. Used well, and at certain periods, my limited experience tells me that they can be a dominant force on the battlefield, but at the same time, your enemy can purchase two or three tanks that are all capable of flank-shot kills on a tiger for the same price. Further, they can get bogged pretty easily, and let me tell you, there is little more frustrating than the old 'bogged in open ground' when you're trying to move your 300pt Tiger up to the front. heheh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 It's the way that the Tiger's armor is all-round durable against Soviet 76mm guns that makes it so formidable; unless a T-34 can practically aim its gun inside the cat's turret, it ain't gonna penetrate without tungsten ammo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Historically, Tigers (when they could make it to the battlefield) could indeed dominate. So I wouldn't say NO to Tigers. I just played a recent game where my opponent had a Panther AND a Tiger. Scared the bajeepers outta me at first. (I even thought "there is no way I'm gonna win this one.") But I had to play each orders phase like it was my last. Think ahead as far as possible and still take some risks. But it paid off. I took out his Panther with a FT team and lured his Tiger into the flanking LOF of two 76mm armed M10's. Afterwards I wondered why I had been so scared. (But I was pretty lucky.) The A.I. is NOT going to give you a challenge as far as TIgers go. I'm playing the A.I. in a CMAK Scenario (North Africa) and I've got 3 Tigers. The A.I. has no clue as to what to do against 'em. It's kind of boring because of that. Take your Tiger and play a human opponent! Bring on the Tigers! Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 The main problem with Tigers in a scenario (especially winter '42) is the result is practically a foregone conclusion - barring a bog, airstrike, barrel hit, or rare 57mm gun Valentine the Tiger's guaranteed to slaughter 'em! Last time I played with a CMBB Tiger I spent a good deal of time dutifully using terrain masking, cover and concealment - the usual armor tactics. Then I realised the Russians might as well have been throwing kisses for all the damage they were doing. If I had wanted I could've charged forward and ended the game in five moves. If you're playing a scenario in order to study a specfic tactical problem then a Tiger in the mix is just fine. If you want nail-biting suspense then try picking PzIVs or captured T34s. Something a shell is NOT guaranteed to bounce off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorsey Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 I just ran a test senario where I pitted 20 Soviet ISU-122s against 20 Tigers at 1400 yards (they squared off face to face with flat terrain and open forests). It was very close, but the ISUs beat the Tigers. It seemed to me that the ISUs may have been lucky in that the Tigers were getting off rounds more quickly and it seemed each side had about the same hit % and kill chance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generaloberst Guderian Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Definately not an exploit, especially considering the rarity. Furthermore, in war there really isn't any notion of "exploits", things that are inherently unfair to the enemy is really just good strategy. Superweapons didn't win the war for Germany in real life, and if you make use of Soviet strengths rather than try to stick it out in a one-on-one fight, your opponent will be forced to continuously attempt to overcome unfavorable odds. Also, don't forget other weapons, especially when on defense. Mines, roadblocks and well hidden AT guns can force Tigers onto soft ground where they bog easily. If by chance you can get it immobilized, you can take advantage of its slower turret by offering it targets from different angles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code13 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 All well and good, but I very frustratingly had to face an uberkitty of the King Tiger variety, not good, since I was on attack (it was a campaign mission). So, Flank Shots are needed thinks I, the only way to do it is a good old T34 rush, no problem, the ground is good and I have a stack of them. So. 9 (count em) T34's of varying models hurtled forward, 8 of em got to the flanks, under 200m and surrounding these devil machines (they all had veteran or better crews as well) What happened I hear you ask. Well this ubercat just took everything those T34's had to offer, killing every single one of them one at a time as I looked on in disbelief as not a single penetrating hit got through from any angle (the KT never missed either! One shot kill every time!) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 What flavour T-34? Whatever they were, you would think they could beat 82mm armor at 200 meters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 They can barely kill the unsloped Tiger I, let alone the II, which adds almost 30 degrees slope to the same thickness, from the sides. 76mm T ammo in 44 mebe. 85mm from 44 on, sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 And historically, by the time the King Cats were around, wouldn't the T-34/85 be the standard Soviet tank? It shouidn't have any trouble killing a KT from the flank or rear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 If this topic were on the CMAK (or CMBO) chat board the consensus would probably be different about the over-use of Tigers. A couple American smoke rounds can work wonders at increasing one's survivability against a big cat. Actually, that's one tactical situation where a Tiger would be required - contrasting tactics with and without the luxury of that smoke shell. I've been torn about the board opinion that repeated use of Tigers is statistically unrealistic. They say the 'average' battle would hardly ever see Tigers (I rather suspect a 'typical' fight post-43 would involve no German armor at all). But if you focus your attention on a Tiger battalion it would've seen Tiger use in 100% of its battles! I'm reminded of the statistic that the average American family has 2.4 children - even though you'd be hard pressed to find a .4 kid playing in anyone's back yard. 'Average' is not 'typical' is not 'historical'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code13 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Mostly T34Ms but with a couple of T34/85s as well. The point is I wasnt trying to hit their front armour from 200m, I was shooting at flank and rear! I never expected to kill from the front 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 How do you do in a Tiger with a smoke shell? Especially if you are Soviets and your tanks (usually) don't have them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 In CMAK and CMBO (and in CMBB with Lend-Lease) the Shermans have smoke rounds. It's not so much killing with smoke as keeping from getting killed. A smoke shell between you and him means he's either blind or has to redeploy, both of which could work out to your advantage. Blinding the big cats is usually your best defense. I gasped in horror the first time I loaded-up CMBB and found the Russian tanks didn't carry smoke shells! There's nothing like playing a few games with a T-34/76 to make a Lend-Lease 75mm gun Sherman seem like an übertank! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 If survival is the goal, then the T-34 covers ground a whole lot faster than the Sherman. Just find out where the Tiger is and head in the opposite direction. Piece of cake. I really am beginning to think the solution to Tigers is multiple Sturmoviks and light artillery to supress the ADA. That's got to be a better pay off than trying to get flank shots that don't work with T-34s. I just was playing against the A/I and got a Tiger I cornered in some scattered woods with 3 x T34/76. Well, maybe "cornered" isn't the right word. Wherever the Tiger went I would of course have to back off, but then I would push the other two T-34s forward. The A/I would detect THOSE tanks as the closest threat, the Tiger would laboriously turn in place and rumble towards THAT T-34, which would of course back off. And the process would repeat itself. Eventually I got things arranged so I could drive all three T-34s onto the Tiger's sides or rear all at once. Ranges were less than 50 meters. No tungsten either - meaning a bit more than than a minute after I set off the engagements all three of my T-34s were burning hulks. Eight fair 76.2mmm AP hits on the Tiger I's sides or rear. Yes eight. No penetrations. The Tiger was quite fine. :mad: I tell ya, I can't wait for CM2. At least then when T-34s come up against Tigers Soviet players will be able to dismount T-34r crews and go after the the damn things with molotovs and hand grenades. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Originally posted by Splinty: And historically, by the time the King Cats were around, wouldn't the T-34/85 be the standard Soviet tank? It shouidn't have any trouble killing a KT from the flank or rear. Sorta. There were still a lorra lorra T34/76 around, right until the end of the war. Most off them fobbed off on, err, graciously given to brothers in arms like the Polish Army, and second-line formations, I guess. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generaloberst Guderian Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Even with the T-34/85, if the KT catches you in the open ground with lots of running room, you're pretty much cooked. If any of you have ever played Operation Mobile Defense, you'll see that just two King Tigers selectively positioned can hold off the worst that the Red Army can muster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 If you want to know how to kill Tigers with the Russians, the answers are Sturmoviks, 57mm ATGs from hiding (preferably from under 400m), and AT minefields. Late war you can add the symmetric, expensive options - hitting from a blind side with a strong AT shooter (IS, ISU, SU-152). Way down the list, hitting them with multiple marginal AT shooters (T-34/85s, SU-85s, Val IXs) or pioneer infantry and TH teams. Dead last, charging to point blank with whole platoons of vanilla tanks - you will lose tons that way for very poor returns. The assymmetric methods are far superior. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 GG - hardly. KTs can't shoot down Sturmoviks... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generaloberst Guderian Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 No, but Quad Flak can! Always a good idea to keep some handy. Besides, I didn't say anything about the Red Air Force 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 IIRC, the Soviet air force was part of the Red Army during WW2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code13 Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Originally posted by Generaloberst Guderian: Even with the T-34/85, if the KT catches you in the open ground with lots of running room, you're pretty much cooked. If any of you have ever played Operation Mobile Defense, you'll see that just two King Tigers selectively positioned can hold off the worst that the Red Army can muster. yup, that was hte mission I was playing, thos damned Kats took out 12 T34's and 2 Is122's. I stayed mobile, gave them little chance to hit me, while pushing infantry forward, but those kats just never missed, one shot kill every fecking time and I couldnt touch them, I think I forced one Kat to abandon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Boy, those Soviets must have been really dumb to train their tank crews the way to take out a Tiger, was to flank it. :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Originally posted by Bigduke6: Boy, those Soviets must have been really dumb to train their tank crews the way to take out a Tiger, was to flank it. :confused: Uhh... This was the same army that endorsed human wave assaults for the infantry, yes? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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