Clearing Woods of SMGs

[SFJaykey]

Several times in recent games, I've suffered terrible casualties trying to clear woods and trees of SMG-armed Russian infantry. I've had support weapons at the ready but as soon as my scouting squads find the SMGs, they're dead. I've tried flamethrowers but they are slow to fire, and usually dead before they get the first shot off. Revenge is nice in the form of heavy support weapons blasting the Russian positions, once located, but I'd like to reduce the casualties. There's seldom enough arty to just blast all the suspicious pockets of woods blindly...

What are the best tactics for attacking SMG armed infantry in cover?

[flamingknives]

Area fire is the only way that you'll get them before they get you. Can be done with DF HE (guns, tanks etc.) the heavier the better or of map arty. If the woods are thin, then pelt them with MGs. If the woods are big and you don't have the fire support to drop on them, don't go in there.

If you have to fight the enemy on his terms, you've lost.

[Edit] D'oh! forgot. Tree bursts make light arty more effective.

[ June 27, 2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: flamingknives ]

[Shosties]

If you've got the rounds 120mm mortar FOs, 105mm and 150mm Arty FOs can do the trick. Plan ahead so the response time doesn't become an issue (you can walk the fire around and use delays if resistance doesn't materialize where you think it is).

[ June 27, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Shosties4th ]

[SFJaykey]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

....If the woods are big and you don't have the fire support to drop on them, don't go in there.

If you have to fight the enemy on his terms, you've lost....

I knew that. Thanks for reminding me.

Still, troops need to be advanced. Advancing through cover is the only way to move troops up in the face of enemy support weapons. But SMG squads in that cover will paste the lead squads before my support weapons can be brought to bear. So, if I promise to avoid the temptation to "root out" SMG infantry from large tracts of wood when not tactically necessary, please tell me what's the best way to advance troops through woods (or other cover) when there is a risk of running into an SMG ambush?

[ June 27, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: SFJaykey ]

[moneymaxx]

This is a CMBO tactic that worked fine for me but since I can't play CMBB at the moment I don't know if it still works in CMBB, but you could give it a try.

If you played CMBO then you know that British infantry (firepower 161 at 40m) against Gebirgsjäger squads (firepower 315 at 40m) isn't easy (nearly impossible) to win without support weapons. I found out that the tiny 2 inch mortar is the key to win this battle. When I discover a SMG squad I order my 2 inch mortar to fire indirectly at them. That is usually enough to pin them or drop their combat effectiveness and morale. That tactic was so successful in the past that I buy an extra 2 inch mortar for every platoon when playing on heavily wooded maps. But a little bit of luck is needed since the platoon HQ must have LOS to the enemy AND must survive first contact, so if your men discover the enemy in the first second of the turn you're almost lost because the SMG will mow down your men and HQ before you have the opportunity to order indirect fire.

I always wanted to try this tactic with German infantry and a 50mm mortar. The only problem would be the minimum range of the 50mm mortar but I think they lowered it in the last patch to some 50m?? That should be low enough to let the HQ have LOS to the target and COC with the mortars.

If you try this would you please post the result here, since I'm interested to know if it works. If it does, the disadvantage of the reduced speed of your infantry because of the slow mortar will be acceptable.

[GreenAsJade]

I think that the scouting technique described by Ligur here pretty much extends to walking through the woods. With less visibility the "firebase" needs to be walking along in the woods probably 30-40m behind the scount, and then it should work?

Maybe Ligur will do a "Scouting through the woods" update to the "scouting from cover to cover" story, if everyone asks nicely!? (Guess we have to wait till he gets over his hangover first!)

[Redwolf]

Sever their supply lines and poison the brooks that go into their parts of the woods. Wait.

Failing that, I think the best thing to do is to have the squads with more men and then instantly seek hand-to-hand combat. Do not hang out at ranges of 40m or so, close in. In hand-to-hand combat the weapon don't matter that much. Also, grenade range helps as all squads have equal grenade capability.

As for closing in, you need one squad to lock into a firefight to get your other squad free to move close enough.

[walpurgis nacht]

Generally speaking:

You must win the armor war if you are the attacker. If you have armor superiority, SMGs are cake. Only circumstance where they are going to be problematic is if they are in the deep middle of a woods patch that none of your HE chuckers can get LOS to from any angle.

Use appropriate scouting techniques to find them with minimal loss. Then, out-flank the patch of woods (or whatever) that they are in so they cannot get away. Roll armor around on both flanks. Area fire the hell out of the suspected SMG positions, at least one full round. Second round, send in the "secondary" scouts to achieve contact. Blast away.

Remember, infantry (save perhaps russian smg squads) are only for finding the enemy . . . .to act as eyes, HE is for killing him.

[ June 28, 2003, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[tar]

Well, this is a slightly gamey tactic, but you can also try ganging up on them. Although squad for squad you can't match the SMG close-in firepower, if you can get 3 or 4 squads to come into LOS together then you can beat them.

I label this as slightly gamey because bunching up units doesn't hurt you against automatic weapons fire, only against HE. In reality, bunching up in the face of SMGs would be suicidal, but in CMxx small arms fire is targetted at only one unit at a time, so piling up doesn't harm you.

[Sidewinder]

Actually if your men are too close, the fire from one SMG squad onto a german squad can cause other squads around it to become shaken, pinned, etc. I've had whole platoons pinned by one SMG squad because i was too close.

[SFJaykey]

Thanks for all the replies. Unfortunately it seems like there is no "magic bullet" to deal with the SMGs. Here's a summary of what I've learned, both from posts here and from my own bloody experience:

- When SMG squads are known or suspected to infest large swaths of wood....don't go in there! If there is a tactical need to traverse or clear the area, the best option is to blast it with lots of HE before moving infantry in.

- if you must root SMGs out of deep woods, and don't have enough HE to slather over all their suspected hidey-holes, be advised that it is a dirty, nasty job and expect casualties.

There are 2 approaches to using infantry against SMG infantry hiding in woods.

The first is to use infantry to locate the SMGs for suppression/extermination by overwatching support weapons. Half squads or tank hunters can be marched into the woods alone to locate the SMGs, but they will die, often being immediately pinned and eliminated before firing a shot themselves. Full squads last longer, but can still be wiped out by an SMG squad at close range before the overwatching support weapons can bail them out. If I had to sacrifice infantry in order to pinpoint SMGs for my support weapons, I'd probably use half squads of my lowest quality troops, since full squads of better troops don't offer many advantages here and are better saved for other tasks.

The second way is to use the infantry's own firepower to take out the SMGs. This is a last resort, only to be undertaken when 1) it is impossible to bypass the area, 2) there is insufficient artillery available to just blast the woods, and 3) effective overwatch by heavy support weapons or armor is impossible or too risky. An example of the latter would be woods that are too thick for support weapons to see into deeply, or where the flanks of the woods are too exposed for tanks or support weapons to get LOS into them.

This is a job for full platoons of infantry, even if only individual squads of SMGs are likely to be encountered. At short range, in cover, the best troops to use against SMG infantry are probably other SMG infantry, if available. Pioneers with their demo charges and flamethrowers also work well, but don't think pioneers are supermen because they are still very vulnerable to the SMGs, and must be handled carefully to avoid unnecessary casualties. The FTs are especially vulnerable because they attract the SMG's fire and are slow to return fire themselves.

The best way to get infantry moving through cover killed by SMGs is to use the "Move" command. Upon contact your lead squad will be quickly pinned, then destroyed, while their platoon mates walk on by. The second best way is to use the "Advance" command, which will cause the infantry to move even closer to the SMGs before stopping to return fire. The best command to use is "Move to Contact." Advance a platoon in line formation, about 15-20m apart depending on whether you're in Woods or Scattered Trees/Pines. A half squad or TH can lead, but keep them no more than 5-10m ahead of the main line. If flamethrowers are available, they should follow about 10m behind the main line. HQs are at least 10m back, only close enough to keep the entire platoon under command. Everybody uses "Move to contact," and it's important to pay attention to command delays and the Pause command to keep the formation in close order. If the lead units get too far ahead, they'll be severely hurt before their buddies can suppress the ambushing SMGs.

When everything goes right, here's what happens: One squad moves into the SMG's ambush range, and gets hit hard. If it is a half-squad it is probably pinned immediately. But the fire of the SMG squad makes it visible to at least some of the other elements of the platoon. They stop and fire. Any trailing flamethrowers continue to move until they achieve LOS, then stop and hopefully fire before the SMGs draw a bead on them. If your FT can get a shot off you are in pretty good shape. SMG/FT exchanges are sometimes over before the end of the turn, but if it carries on till the next Orders phase and you have pioneers, have 1 squad throw demo charges. Throw them 2-3 meters behind the enemy SMGs, if you can see that far. This for 3 reasons: 1) to protect your own guys from the blast, 2) the SMGs may panic and start crawling away before the demo charges are thrown, and 3) where there is one SMG squad there are often others.

Well, that's the best I've been able to come up with so far. Maybe it will be useful to any newbies who have been following the thread. If anybody has more ideas, I'd love to hear them.

[ June 29, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: SFJaykey ]

[Redwolf]

More tests:

In CMBB things are quite a bit different than in CMBO.

1) first volleys are pretty ineffective. Only continued high-FP fire decimates squads. I noticed that both with SMG squads and with several HMGs opening up. Targets were on pavement and with the backs to the shooters. They would have been wiped out in CMBO, but take minimal casulties in CMBB. Only if the fire continues for several turns the casulties mount.

That means for this thread: you will likely survive the initial volley pretty much intact.

2) When squads get into hand-to-hand combat range, there is less hand-to-hand combat and more smallarms than in CMBO. At ranges of 2-5m there seems to be roughly 1/3rd smallarms, 1/3rd grenade and 1/3rd hand-to-hand combat.

That means for this thread: forget about my tip above, closing the range this far will help, but not as much as it did in CMBO.

3) A 9-men SMG squad can wipe out a 10-man German 41 rifle squad quite good. However, it shoots all its ammo in one turn. But the 1941 pattern German squad (1 LMG, 1 SMG, 8 riles) does so as well, it shoots its 50 ammo points real good, it will last not much longer than one turn. Ironically, supressing the SMG squad makes the situation better for the SMG squad as it will keep its ammo longer and the enemy rifle squad will not likely cause major casulties during that time.

That means for this thread: if you get a SMG squad into an open firefight for a full turn its effectivity will be drastically reduced.

4) Catching a SMG squad on the move at 30m distance can get it into a firefight that it loses to said German squad.

That means for this thread: if you find one squad, try to anticipiate whether and where the opponents will move reinforcements in. If you establish fire cover over their approch route you gain a huge advantage.

Overall, I find SMG squads in CMBB pretty ineffective. Especially the fact that the first volley doesn't wipe out half the moving enemy squad hurts them badly. On average, a 9-man SMG soviet squad will win a firefight against a German 41 rifle squad, but it is pretty much used up afterwards, both ammo- and men-wise. A 1:1 trade is not what you would want in this situation.

I will run some test with German SMG squads and Soviet Recon-Style squads (more men, no LMG).

[Redwolf]

Interesting. A Volksgrenadier SMG squad (8x MP40) wipes a Recon C squad (11 men, 1 SMG, no LMG) out every time.

Firepower at 40m:

- Soviet 9-man SMG squad: 450 (ammo 25)

- German Rifle 1941: 124 (ammo 50)

- German Volksgrenadier SMG: 288 (ammo 25)

- Soviet Recon C: 111 (ammo 63)

- Soviet 7-men SMG squad: 250 (ammo 25)

- Italian 11-men rifle-only: 77 (ammo 65)

In the latter case the rifle loses quite badly, too, although there is a 50% advantage in men (at a distance of 3 meters as reported by the game).

[Redwolf]

Everybody's darling the Sturmgruppe:

- Soviet 7-men SMG squad: 250 (ammo 25)

- German 13-men Sturmgruppe squad: 283 (ammo 37)

The Germans often win this, but not always.

At distances of 15 meters they often win with quite a few man left, at very close distances this fights comes out one side winning randomly with 1-3 men left. CMBB apparently gives very few hand-to-hand fighting casualties.

Again, the ammo consumption is interesting. The Sturmgruppe blew 24 ammo points in 40 seconds. More on that in an additional posting.

The problem for the Sturmgruppe here is that they take more casualties for the same firepower, morale goes down fast and they become supressed. They moment they break they are done for.

It is clear that CMBB gives a chance of casulty on a per-man basis in a squad for a given firepower (as it should), so a twice as big squad takes twice as many casulties from a similar burst. That's good and realistic. What I like less is that there is no apparently higher rate of grenades thrown from the bigger squad and obviously there is no hand-to-hand combat advantage (the bigger squad should have a huge advantage in a barfight).

So, if the Sturmgruppe catches the bad end in the beginning of the firefight things will likely go downhill from there. If it establishes any kind of even fight it wins.

EDITED:

Last test: Small panzergrenadier squads, 9 men with 2 LMGs

- Soviet 9-man SMG squad: 450 (ammo 25)

- Panzergrenadier '44: 232 (ammo 26)

The Panzergrenadier fire Panzerfausts, throw demo charges and whatever else they figure out could harm the hapless SMG squad, so I had to re-run the test after taming them

The Germans usually lose this one.

The Grenadiers blow their ammo easily in one turn, too.

[ June 29, 2003, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Redwolf]

I am afraid the results are not really that interesting, at least I have few conclusions.

I was close to claming that LMG-equipped squad have an ROF advantage at close range, but a direct comparision at the same target in the same fight reveales they don't. Turns of 21 bursts from one-LMG and rifle-only squads are easily achived and while I have seen 24 bursts in 40 seconds from the Sturmgruppe once a direct head-to-head firing test of these three is equal. Not sure what to think of this. Maybe I screwed up controlling HQs in some of the tests.

What is surprising is the low casulty rate from the first burst.

So, very few to see here:

1) bring squads with LMGs, but 2 LMGs don't seem to offer a big advantage (maybe if you split). Rifle-only are just too weak and usually have too many men, which offer no advantage, because...

2) ... you can forget about the theoretical advantage of more grenades thrown from bigger squads.

3) ... you can forget about the hand-to-hand combat advantage from bigger squads.

4) be careful with very big squads, casulties mount fast and lead to bad morale quickly. You want big squads when you go through repeated engagements with pauses for recovery in between, but not for small intense firefights as in pushing SMG squads out of woods (splitting may help, dunno).

5) you can assume you survive the first bursts and will only die from the following bursts, but that means these bursts are in the same turn.So if you manage to move your troops with mutual support so that an enemy squad will come under fire from several of yours after the first burst you gain a huge advantage and will likely get your lead squad out halfway intact.

Overall, the question who got whom on the move and angle of attack are far more important. Good HQs should be essential in such a fight. So formation discipline and good guesswork are more important than fiddling with the unit selection

%%

I would be grateful if somebody could run some tests to verify my assumptions. The whole thing is very randomized and I cannot gain statistically meaningful numbers of test runs.

A) Do you find that a german Rifle 41 squad (1 LMG) has more bursts/turn as a pure rifle squad (e.g. Italian Pioneer).

Do you see any advantage of many-men squads at close range, either from grenades throwing or from hand-to-hand combat?

[ June 29, 2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[YankeeDog]

All this talk about close range rates of fire reminds me of something that I notice a while ago and meant to bring up, but had since forgotten:

To take the simplest example:

As Redwolf notes, in CMBB a SMG-only squad engaged in close-range combat can easily shoot off it's entire ammo load (25 shots) in one turn. While in general I think the idea that close-range combat tends to burn up ammo faster that longer range combat is a good one, I am skeptical as to whether this is really possible and I wonder if the model may have gone too far in trying to improve on CMBO's 'one size fits all' rates of fire and ammo loads.

Most sources I have read put the standard ammo load for a German infantryman carrying an MP40 in WWII at about 7 magazines. The mags techically could carry 32 rounds each, but apparently in practice most soldiers underloaded the magazines to help prevent jamming problems and also to reduce stress on the mag spring.

So let's say each clip had 30 rounds, giving the German submachinegunner a total of 210 rounds. I don't know what the ammo loads of other nationalities' SMG gunners were, but my guess is they were probably pretty similar.

That means, in order to shoot off his entire ammo load in 60 seconds, our intrepid German infantryman is going to have to fire off about 210 rounds. Given the MP40's cyclic ROF of about 400 rounds/min, just the acutal firing of this many rounds would take a bit over 30 seconds.

And this doesn't take into account the time it take to change mags - which in order to shoot off his entire load, the soldier has to do 6 times. Even under firing range conditions, I doubt a mag change can be done in less than 3 seconds. Under field conditions, I'd say 5 seconds is a more realistic minimum.

So, just to burn through 7 mags of ammo, we're already over 1 minute, and we still haven't thrown any grenades, engaged in any hand-to-hand combat, or so much as flinched to avoid any incoming fire, let alone taken a second or two to adjust our aim. . .

Basically, at a firing range with the mags laid out in front of you on a table, I think you could get 210 rounds out of an MP40 in 1 minute if you didn't really bother to aim and just emptied each mag in turn. In an actual close-combat stituation, where you presumably care where the rounds are going, and are also going to take time to do things like take cover, throw grenades, etc, this ROF just doesn't sound possible to me.

Something to think about for future iterations of CM. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Beta1]

The old ammo drain option is quite a good tactic against SMGs. If you can (and your opponent is daft enough) try and get him to fire at you from further than his optimum range and burn up ammo. Alternatively as suggested above throw a unit at him to use up his ammo then hit him with a second attack. Not very nice but it works. And if your attacking and you have the time to rally your troops and throw them back its even better - his ammo dosn't replenish, your squads will rally and have another go.

[Sirocco]

If the SMG squads are particularly deep in the woods, consider bypassing them, if that's possible, covering their redeployment routes with support weapons. If an SMG platoon is placed in such a position to limit LOS in, it's LOS out must also be affected. With improved LOS have on-map mortars ready to provide support fire to pin the defenders in place while you call in off-map support.

[Ph0r3vEr]

Ahem, my 5 pence is that if you know where the enemy is (or strongly suppose that you know) you can use area fire to smoke him out. The German LMGs have a phenomenal rate of fire that will easily deplete their ammo stores while doing so thus making them ill suited for such use. The scout infantry on the other hand is well suited for such a role.

Thus if the map is small and I suspect that the enemy is close I designate my support machine guns, infantry guns and whatnot with area fire targets in the woods (about as deep inside the woods as they can see) I'm about to close in. As the troopers start to reach the area it is wise to cancel the area targets...

If they consider themselves under fire the usual enemy response is to fire back from their hiding places thus revealing their positions. This tactic is best to employ in small maps where the enemy is likely to know where you are coming from anyway. I sometimes use it on bigger scens as well. Few shots along a long line make the field of combat seem a bit hectic and might even serve to distract the enemy.

-4eva

[Edited to make my English teacher a bit more content]

[ June 30, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Ph0r3vEr ]

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by moneymaxx:

I found out that the tiny 2 inch mortar is the key to win this battle. When I discover a SMG squad I order my 2 inch mortar to fire indirectly at them. That is usually enough to pin them or drop their combat effectiveness and morale. That tactic was so successful in the past that I buy an extra 2 inch mortar for every platoon when playing on heavily wooded maps.

Moneymaxx, I think I found the answer to my question I just asked you. Now you shall see first hand if this works

[Redwolf]

In CMBB the mortars are not that easy. LOS in summer woods is something like 26m and the min range is 60m or 50 for the Romanian. Command range without bonus is the same 26m, so that doesn't really fit. A 2+ command regular HQ goes to 48m so that is barely realistic.

The Italian 45mm one has 20 meters but that one is not always available.

[ July 01, 2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Sardaukar]

Well, you could also bring in your *own* SMG squads and fight it out.

Or even better..bring in those nasty Sturmtruppen, or German Fallschirmjaeger squads who also have quite impressive firepower. For Russian, their Airborne squads have good firepower and ammo too.

And, as have been said earlier, getting the SMG squads into exteded firefight will lower their capability drastically. And it shouldn't be too hard to walk couple of half-squads as scouts through woods until their locate enemy..and then rain them with artillery. Even 81 mm mortars do fine due airbursts.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Beta1]

How about a flamepanzer?

As its based on the hetzer it should be impervious to SMG, just area target as far as you can inside the woods and set their hiding places on fire...

Shame the germans dont have anything like the russian OT series or brit crocodile.

[flamingknives]

The Fallschirmjager Recon company in '44 is mean - Pioneer squads with a decent close range kick besides the demo charge