CMBO: German Player using Allied side

[MAsta_KFC]

Playing CMBO I have been an avid player of the germans. Personally, I prefer using the equipment, their squad loadouts and tanks. Against all my challengers (not many mind you) I always use the germans. I used to think I was the big fish in the small pond.

However, the other day, one of my opponents suggested I use the allies (Americans to be specific). Thinking that I was the tactical genius that I am not, I promptly agreed and started the game accompanied with much friendly trash talk.

15 turns later, my squads were routed, my tanks in flames and only one valiant AT crew firing at 2 platoons worth of men charging them. Needless to say, I have been forced to rethink my tactics.

The question is: What are the major tactical changes I must implement while using the Americans compared to ther Germans? My friends won't let me play German anymore after this defeat, I suspect. I'm not talking about the 'general' tactics, but rather more specifically the 'conversion' tactics, ie the change of mindset I have. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

I think the most conscious change that I make when playing as the Allies is to generally keep my vehicles behind my main line of infantry and out of LOS until I already have a target in mind. It helps them live longer when there are Panthers around. When playing as Germans, I will often play them more forward.

Also, the Americans in particular have a huge edge in artillery. Sometimes it can be worth it to "waste" a few turns by halting at the point of contact and shelling the German positions.

-Andrew

[Slappy]

I've been in BB land for some time, but here's what I remember about the americans.

1. Their infantry is designed for all around mediocrity. The germans have a different squad for every use. The americans have just one pattern. They lose at close range to SMGs and at long to better MGs and LMGs. American infantry is best used at medium rifle range. They also have more organic heavy weapons like the 60mm mortar and the fairly fast squad MG. You need to use these to get the most out of american infantry, not just the 3 squads.

2. Artillery is much faster and more important. American artillery shows up 1-2 min faster calibre to calibre. Use this to your advantage. VT can also be particularly punishing if you have the points to buy 155m+. So much so that it has been outlawed in many point restriction schemes.

3. US armor sucks. Nothing you have the points to buy can take on anything he has the points to buy from the front. If you can't get a side shot, and you don't have a 76mm, you might as well stay behind the hill. If you're considering a Sherman 75mm, you might as well get a Greyhound. Neither can take out a Panther from the front, and the Greyhound is half the price.

Put it together and what do you get? Use your infantry much farther forward of your armor. Use your superior artillery to break / pin infantry before you close to make up for your lack of SMGs. Once you've stripped him of his infantry, then you can bring up the sub par armor and go for side shots.

At least that's the way I remember it.

[Redwolf]

I usually preferred the British that have lots of toys, but here it goes from memory:

1) VT artillery

2) see 1)

3) see 2)

4) M8 HMC

5) see 4)

6) big squads. Initiate hand-to-hand combat. The game engine allows you to concentrate more men per square meter the bigger the squad is (all squads have the same size in the CM engine)

7) Sherman Jumbo turret withstands 75mm L48 hits.

9) A good armor combo is a 75mm Jumbo backed up by a Jackson.

10) know the weaknesses of German armor. You can kill a Hetzer from a 75mm Sherman with a lower hull hit, so watch his hulldown status and act appropriately. A Panzer IV has a 50mm turret and hence it is more vulnerable in hulldown if you are shooting from a Greyhound or Stuart. You must know stuff like that a StuG III turns very slow and is very bog-prone in bad ground but that a StuG IV is much better and may nail you if you try to flank it with StuG III experience in mind. Likewise for Panzer IV/70 and Jagdpanther, one is much swifter.

11) the rest of the artillery ain't bad either

12) the M3A1 halftrack is a great victory point collector. It isn't that great in battle because it cannot fire when buttoned or shocked. But 250 ammo for a .50cal means after you win a battle you can use it to mop up all the crews and routed infantry floating around the enemy rear. This is a very imporant factor if you play in a ladder where not only victory or not counts but the level of victory. It can also push the enemy into autosurrender, giving you lots of extra points.

12) Know the quirks. The CM game mechanics and especially the CMBO mechanics (no cover arc) lead to fast turret being extremly important.

13) Know the bugs. In CMBO there is an obvious miscalculation that a fast moving shooter usually nails a standing target as good or better than vice versa. Racing Hellcats and Greyhounds on streets can be pretty good fun, especially against vehicles with slow turrets or no turret and slow turn rate.

On the negative side:

A) the simpler Shermans suck from a mobility standpoint and the HVSS variants are just overpriced.

the artillery modules all have much ammo and hence are expensive.

On the soso side:

I) some people like the M18 Hellcat, but the overeffective CMBO FlaK guns lessen the fun considerably for me.

II) similar goes for the Greyhound.

[ June 09, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Beta1]

Forget being able to dominate the map with your tanks, as the americans you really need tank destroyers to protect you from armor then short 75 HE chuckers to blast out the infantry, no more smacking everything with the old reliable 88s.

[CrapGame]

Stuarts and M8HMCs. Hordes of them. 81mm mortar spotters for smoke barrages.

See his armor, smoke the hell out of it, and then race in for the fun. You will run circles around him, probably lose a few units in the mix, but at least you'll have a chance to kill some of them. 3 sides of the Panther are soft. You only have to get to 1 of them.

[fridericus]

hi

the player, who dominates the tankbattle, dominates the whole match in nearly all cases.

so you need some toys for beating german armor.

frontally you can only use jumbo76 and churchills 7/8 for duells. they are superior to all but the 88L71 (tiger b, jagdpanther). churchils often succeed in gunhits. a pair of hellcats speeding around is very cruelty to german armor, but they are simply killed by FlaK, so you have to spot for them. FlaKs and other guns you can easily kill with 3"-onboard-mortarts. much blast and ammo for only 36 points. as infantry the allies have only one sinceful company: british airborne. they are relativly cheap and you dont waste points in senseless supportteams in every platoon. you need to support your ínfantry with FO-105VT, FO-4" and m8hmc. all allied infantry will die in duelling german sturmkompanie or mountaintroops without support. dont use us halftracks, but british. the m5a1 has 1mm more armor and the brencarrier can transport piat and 3"-mortars. but the most important weapon, you should never forget, is the wasp: with this little toy you can make the decision in every infantrybattle.

cu

[Redwolf]

CMBO was all but dominated by armor.

Failing anything else, the shift key rules.

[MAsta_KFC]

Hmm, thanks very much guys. I'm playing him again this Saturday, hopefully results will be a bit better. Any more hints to give me the edge? Appreciated.

[flamingknives]

Allied light mortars really annoy field guns, esp. in trees. The British 2" mortar is even fast enough to keep up with its infantry platoons.

37mm guns will mess up axis light and medium tanks from the sides, and Stuarts carry 3 MGs and all the worlds ammo.

Ram Kangeroos - Flak proof APCs.

57mm/6pdr ATG is an excellent piece of kit, even on the offensive (provided that you add a universal carrier or jeep)

[moneymaxx]

Whatever you do, play British. They have way better weapons than the Americans except the infantry units.

1) Infantry

-If your opponent doesn't mind, mix British Airborne with tanks and support weapons. If he does it gets harder but not impossible.

2) Support weapons

-On farmland and rural maps I would buy extra 2 inch mortars. They are great to suppress. That way I once killed a Gebirgsjäger platoon in woods with my rifle platoon with only a few losses.

-The 3 inch mortar is a real bargain 66 shells for only 36 points, that's even cheaper than the 3 inch mortar FO.

-The 6 pdr ATG very often comes with tungsten rounds that can even take out a Tiger frontally.

3) Vehicles

-If their are no AT assets then wasps rule. Before the arrival of 100m Panzerfausts you can take out any German platoon easily from 75m. A hint: wasps fire when buttoned so button them always.

- Daimler AC have a very nasty 40mm gun that can take out a Panther with a flank shot.

4) Tanks

-Many British tanks have the 17pdr gun which can take out nearly everything especially with tungsten. Those tanks are:

-Archer, can only fire backwards and can be killed by 20mm shells but is very cheap

-Firefly

-Challenger, better turret armour than the Firefly but worse armour overall, fewer shells, cheaper.

-Achilles, open top turret, even cheaper than the challenger.

In early war all those tanks come without HE shells, a QB should tell you if they have HE or not.

- There are great anti-infantry tanks too:

Churchill VIII, extreme armour that can't be taken out frontally by the German 75mm gun, good anti-inf shell, good HC shell but usually gets only few.

Churchill VII, same as above but with a 75mm gun, good against anything up to a Panzer IV / StuG, reasonable anti-inf shell.

5) Artillery

All British arty is very cheap, much cheaper than the American. My favourites are 4.2 inch mortars and 4.5inch arty. VT is expensive but VERY deadly especially against open vehicles.

Good luck in your next battle .

[lcm1947]

Well I am very happy to see one other person other than myself that thinks that it is difficult for the American's to win over the German's due to all the superior stuff they have be it tanks, schrecks, HMG's, SMG's or AT guns. I have expressed this point numberous times but get no sympathy. So while everybody is giving good advise and are only trying to help allow me to be the first one to say - Get used to it, losing that is, with the American's. :mad: Overall, the German equipment was superior to what the American's had and so it is in the game also and I have no problem with that but from a playable or shall I say fair point of view. In my opinion what unbalances it is the points each side gets. To be balanced the Americans would have to get more points and this would only be realistic anyway as they had more of everything anyway, from my understanding, so it should be so in the game since the superiority of the German's is portrayed the way it is. So there I voice my opinion yet again.

[HarryInk]

My two pennies worth is:

Don't leave home with out buying artillery. You buy it first and up to the max. Try and get a 81mm FO for smoke, then the biggest and meanest stuff you can get. You can shuffle options over the various games to test them out. 105 grinds them down. 155mm+ kills and routs. Beautiful.

As CMBO doesn't do MMGs/HMGs well, the US weapons coys can be a little less dangerous than you'd like, but .50cals kick arse! They turn your HTs into HT killers, and they'll upset defenders in almost all cover.

Yep, the tanks are crappy: Shermans seem to drive on crutches across country, etc. etc. but that's what the 81mm FOs are for...blind him during the crucial parts of the game and sneak about for the flank shots. Overwatch is mandatory, usually with 76mm+ TDs.

The 12 man US squads are crushing when they overrun tired/chewed up infantry. So if you've managed the HE battle well and bruised his Landers, your doughboys should be able to clear up his last stands quite neatly. Beware the SMG squads, tho'. You'll know yourself what damage they can wreak.

Hellcats are delights. Don't waste 'em on face to face fights. Slice through and bite his bum.

The little M8 howitzer carriages are cute. Keep 'em away from armor...so they huge woods and buildings...but they'll really annoy any attempts a German makes to enter towns,e tc. etc. Great close support.

In a nutshell, (it's been said above), ARTILLERY is the key.

Also search for Jason C's post "how to attack like a German"...it was up here or in the CMBB forum recently. It also has a section on fighting like the US...basically green everything that supports the artillery FOs!! Sounds funny, but I think he's probably on the ball.

I like fighting as the US. The zooks rule!!

[HarryInk]

Oh... I forgot to mentions Priests. I love 'em. Use 'em down fire alleys. Fire much much faster than Wespes. No armor worth a damn, so don't fool yourself with hull down. But if you sucker him into defending the village, you can take him apart turn by turn, building by building, from across the map. Just an extension of that US mantra: artillery, artillery, ARTILLERY!

[moneymaxx]

Originally posted by HarryInk:

My two pennies worth is:

Don't leave home with out buying artillery. You buy it first and up to the max. Try and get a 81mm FO for smoke, then the biggest and meanest stuff you can get. You can shuffle options over the various games to test them out. 105 grinds them down. 155mm+ kills and routs. Beautiful.

As CMBO doesn't do MMGs/HMGs well, the US weapons coys can be a little less dangerous than you'd like, but .50cals kick arse! They turn your HTs into HT killers, and they'll upset defenders in almost all cover.

Yep, the tanks are crappy: Shermans seem to drive on crutches across country, etc. etc. but that's what the 81mm FOs are for...blind him during the crucial parts of the game and sneak about for the flank shots. Overwatch is mandatory, usually with 76mm+ TDs.

The 12 man US squads are crushing when they overrun tired/chewed up infantry. So if you've managed the HE battle well and bruised his Landers, your doughboys should be able to clear up his last stands quite neatly. Beware the SMG squads, tho'. You'll know yourself what damage they can wreak.

Hellcats are delights. Don't waste 'em on face to face fights. Slice through and bite his bum.

The little M8 howitzer carriages are cute. Keep 'em away from armor...so they huge woods and buildings...but they'll really annoy any attempts a German makes to enter towns,e tc. etc. Great close support.

In a nutshell, (it's been said above), ARTILLERY is the key.

Also search for Jason C's post "how to attack like a German"...it was up here or in the CMBB forum recently. It also has a section on fighting like the US...basically green everything that supports the artillery FOs!! Sounds funny, but I think he's probably on the ball.

I like fighting as the US. The zooks rule!!

I mostly agree with you but the Hellcats aren't that good. I had this tactic used ONCE against me. It was very effective but since then I buy some 20mm flak guns and those stop the Hellcats very quickly at the same time they protect me from jeep rushes. From time to time I add a 250/9, 20mm gun, very cheap (only 37points) and a killer of HTs, Priests, Hellcats, jeeps ....

Originally posted by HarryInk:

Just an extension of that US mantra: artillery, artillery, ARTILLERY!

Arty is the key to win a battle as the Allies, no doubt about it and the British get it much cheaper. I made a excel sheet to calculate the blast per point cost of the different arty modules. The Americans get 31 to 36 (exception the 75mm with 41) while the British get 35,5 to 40,9 (exception the 14 inch naval with 31). It's easy to see when you look at the 4.5 inch arty, the American module costs 144 the British module only 123. I have to admit though that I didn't calculate it for all months but I think the point cost of arty is always the same.

[HarryInk]

He's right, you know! *L*

[PiggDogg]

Best CMBO Allied combo. This may be gamey, but here it is.

(1) The Mother of all weapons: Regular US 155 arty. Kills "all" German infantry, has a 2 minute on target time, kills German light & open top vehicles, sometimes gun damages or immobilized the Uber Cats. This is "THE BEST" weapon in CMBO. One can't ID the FO (if used corrrectly), and it devestates all German infantry.

(2) Tank killers: Vet (sometimes crack) Brit 17 pounder tanks & TDs. They are eggshells with hammers and must be carfully used, but they can kill the Uber Cats with one shot.

If Brit 17s AFVs are not available, US 76 mm tanks & TDs are a second choice. Tolerable because they can kill TigerIs & Panthers. However, they bounce against big sloped German TDs & KingTigers.

(3) Reg US infantry (line infantry or paras). Not bad when compared to German infantry, but absolutely great when compared to Brit infantry which, to put it mildly, sucks. Try engaging the Germans from the 100 meter range.

(4) Tactics: (a) seize the important covering terrain terrain and have the enemy attack you. ( If big arty (105 & larger) is going to fall on your guys, ruthlessly run (withdraw) like all get out. © If your guys are outgunned in a firefight, ruthlessly run (withdraw) like all get out.

Hope that this helps

Cheers, Richard

[JasonC]

Don't take US 76s when you can take Jacksons. The 90mm is well worth the few extra points. It kills sloped beasties better than 76s. Besides, it has a fast turret and better HE. If the date is too early for Jacksons, cry and settle for M-10s. Don't buy US 76mm Shermans - too expensive.

The way to win with Americans is to win the HE and infantry war. Your HE subtracts from his infantry. Your infantry depth outlasts what remains. The armor war you fight on a shoestring with a few good TDs and a flock of cheap zooks. Press the zooks forward everywhere your infantry reaches, to restrict the places his armor can operate.

The Germans have a set of trade offs for their armor that this method exploits. They either pay high prices for stuff that does everything (Tigers e.g.), or they get cheap stuff good at the armor war but with limited anti-infantry ability due to poor MG and HE ammo (Hetzers, Jagds), or they take cheap and efficient HE chuckers that aren't thick enough to bounce a zook round or short 75 (StuH, Hummels, SPW-251/9s).

You need enough vanilla AT to keep the last sort from eating your squads, and enough good TDs to kill at least a few of the first sort, which doesn't come in large numbers. The middle sort can still win the armor war for him, but after some losses (to flank shots, your TDs exchanging off). Without lots left or much HE or MG ammo for each, the remaining vehicles can't win the war singlehanded.

Meanwhile you put the bulk of your points in 155 (or 105) HE and infantry depth. The infantry keeps going even after substantial losses - big squads and lots of medium capability teams, that all stay in action down a few men. In terrain where the Germans would send an infantry assault, the US sends an "HE assault" instead - FOs for large woods, tank HE from plain Shermans for buildings.

Keep your infantry 150 yards away in the next or next but one body of cover, using it to contain enemy infantry, cut lines of retreat, etc. Only send them in to grenade range after the Germans are heads down from HE. Take your time. Give your tanks and FOs a chance to empty their HE supplies. There is nothing quite as intimidating to infantry as a 155mm barrage walking around on 30 second adjusts minute after minute, while the enemy stays just out of SMG range and in cover.

[MAsta_KFC]

Excellent, thanks guys!!!

The GAME is on today, hopefully I can surprise him with my stunning tactics.

[moneymaxx]

Originally posted by MAsta_KFC:

The GAME is on today, hopefully I can surprise him with my stunning tactics.

Please don't forget to post the end result and what you bought here. That would be very interesting .

[HarryInk]

Yep....let us know if it was our lousy advice or your lousy generalship (or vice versa).

[MAsta_KFC]

Almost, guys, almost. It's going to be a 1000pt QB, Axis attacker, day, clear, Village, light trees etc (default settings) medium map, Nov 1944.

Game was postponed till this Saturday. Wish me luck!! (and any other last minute hints on playing Allied defence?)

[flamingknives]

57mm ATG in defilade and 90mm AAG as well if you feel like your opponent is going to field heavy armour.

[moneymaxx]

You are defending??? My suggestion, surrender . It's extremly difficult to win a defence mission in CMBO.

If you still want to fight, don't forget to buy some TRPs. They are real life savers. A good combination are on-map 3 inch mortars and a TRP, because, attention important, all on-map mortars even mortar-carriers can fire on a TRP WITHOUT LOS when fired from their inital setup position, if you move them just an inch you loose that advantage (just place them somewhere safe with no LOS to anything). So if your opponent steps on a TRP you can directly attack him with no time delay. It's actually a double advantage, since the 3 inch shells will usually pin the enemy infantry around the TRP so that you can be sure that they'll still be there when your heavy arty arrives. Personally I'd use 4.5 inch arty because it has enough punch and enough shells.

I hope that you win .

[ June 19, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: moneymaxx ]

[MAsta_KFC]

Originally posted by moneymaxx:

You are defending??? My suggestion, surrender . It's extremly difficult to win a defence mission in CMBO.

Wow that sounds pretty bleak. I'm sure I can't just throw the towel in,my honor is at stake here!!