Military Geologists?

[jacobs_ladder2]

Hey

I just picked up a couple of books from Leo Niehorster and was looking at the KStNs for panzer divisions.

Anyone have any idea what a Motorized Military Geologist Section (KStN 2082) was responsible for? According to Niehorster, it was part of the established HQ for a panzer division.

The HQ also included a Motorized Divisional Mapping Detachment and Printing Platoon, but these probably had fairly predictable roles.

What a bunch of geologists were doing I have absolutely no idea.

Cheers

Paul

[Gpig]

(Just a warning, this post of mine will have absolutely no worth.)

Maybe they are tasked with looking for the Arc (of the covenant)? Though I would have thought they'd be archeologists. Hmmmm . . .

Or, if the division runs out of ammo, they are required to find and extract the materials out of the earth to create gunpowder? (Like that one episode of Star Trek, where Kirk fashions a bazooka to launch diamonds at Lizard boy?)

Or maybe, each King Tiger had a Geologist on the fender, helping to identify good routes of travel to avoid bogging.

Ok, I'm done.

Sorry

[rleete]

Hee, hee. Keep going.

[Jim1954]

Look Here:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Toppe/toppe.asp

in Chapter 1, Prior planning.

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by Gpig:

(Just a warning, this post of mine will have absolutely no worth.)

Maybe they are tasked with looking for the Arc (of the covenant)? Though I would have thought they'd be archeologists. Hmmmm . . .

Or, if the division runs out of ammo, they are required to find and extract the materials out of the earth to create gunpowder? (Like that one episode of Star Trek, where Kirk fashions a bazooka to launch diamonds at Lizard boy?)

Or maybe, each King Tiger had a Geologist on the fender, helping to identify good routes of travel to avoid bogging.

Ok, I'm done.

Sorry

You nut.

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by Jim1954:

Look Here:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Toppe/toppe.asp

in Chapter 1, Prior planning.

That makes sense. The 5th Light Division (later the 21st Panzer Division) had a sizeable number of geologists along for the ride when it arrived in N. Africa. Interesting article. Thanks.

Cheers

Paul

[David I]

Think bridges, river bottoms, ground suitable for bunkers, etc.

DavidI

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by David I:

Think bridges, river bottoms, ground suitable for bunkers, etc.

DavidI

Bridges? :confused:

Not sure about this. Seems to me the engineers would know what they were doing enough to get through without geologists. I mean, geologists would be nice to have along, but were they so important that they had to be part of EVERY panzer division?

Cheers

Paul

[eichenbaum]

Perhaps those geologists were a part of the "Geländeerkundung" (Terrain reconnaissance). You need to know on what kind of soil you're fighting on; especially when it's about to rain for longer periods -> mud!

Nils

[JasonC]

Where to dig in, the water table, gravel "metalling" for roads, etc. In WW I, the Brits tried to attack in Flanders. The ground was chalk with the water table within 10 feet of the surface. Artillery fire churned it to mud with the consistency of porridge. When staffers later visited the front, they took one look and said "we sent men to fight in THAT?" As for metalling, also in WW I the French has entire regiments of second line troops that stood and shovelled gravel all day onto an important road supplying Verdun. Because without it, it would have become one big rut.

[GS_Guderian]

The German Army still fields those specialists:

The "Amt für Geoinformationswesen der Bundeswehr"

is responsible for weather forcasts as well as supplying the armed forces with all kinds of maps, satelite photos etc.

Actually that is quiet understandable I think.

[David I]

Jacobs Ladder,

By bridges I ment, is this a suitable point to cross, is there a bottom to the mud or will we drive piles forever and ever.

If we dig trenches and do not reinforce them, will they collapse with the first rain?

Is there gold in dem dar hills?

OK, maybe not the last one.

I have no doubt that they worked very closely with the Engineers.

DavidI

[JasonC]

We all understand needing maps, but call those specialists "geographers" not "geologists". We understand needing to know the weather, but call those specialists "meteorologists". In English, a geologist, proper, studies soil and rock formations. Is German usage different, as to the extent of the term?

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by David I:

Jacobs Ladder,

By bridges I ment, is this a suitable point to cross, is there a bottom to the mud or will we drive piles forever and ever.

If we dig trenches and do not reinforce them, will they collapse with the first rain?

Is there gold in dem dar hills?

OK, maybe not the last one.

I have no doubt that they worked very closely with the Engineers.

DavidI

Good point. I hadn't considered that. I think the reason I found it so odd was that scientists of all types could be useful in certain situations, but that the German Army chose geologists above all. I found it hard to figure out of what specific use a geologist could be that would merit having a section of them officially assigned to every panzer division. I guessed some of the uses, but, I don't know, it just seemed like overkill. You know?

Anyways. I appreciate the posts, guys.

Cheers

Paul

[David I]

Jacob,

This is the regieme that brought you Air Force Tank Divisions, SS rocket programs, and many more bizzare programs. Geologists in Panzer Divisions seems mild to me. Anyway, there they are.

DavidI

[Merkin Muffley]

Maybe they helped decide where to put mines.

You know: "Shall we put it here? Shall we put it there? No, I disagree, we should put it over there." It was called Mine Kampf.

[eichenbaum]

Quote of 'German Offensive Attack Tactics' (US wartime reports on German tactics) :

"The Germans place great emphasis on terrain reconnaissance, realizing the influence terrain has upon the conduct of operations. Most of their usual reconnaissance missions include terrain reconnaissance tasks. Terrain may be so important at times as to require reconnaissance by special units. Ground and air reconnaissance units give special attention to the road net - its density, condition, road blocks, mines, and demolition - as well to the terrain itself, particularly tank country."

[Generaloberst Guderian]

Here is the distinction:

The German word for "geologist" is "Geologe".

"Geländeerkundung" is a compound word coming from "Das Gelände", meaning terrain, and "Erkundung" meaning reconnaissance.

[eichenbaum]

I found it hard to figure out of what specific use a geologist could be that would merit having a section of them officially assigned to every panzer division. I guessed some of the uses, but, I don't know, it just seemed like overkill. You know?

The type of ground where the tanks should manoeuvre on is very important.

For example; very hard rock like granite can damage the tracks. If you want to send a heavy AFV like a JagdPanther or Ferdinant into the field you need to be sure that the tracks won't break when try to turn on their own axis.

Another issue is fuel use; if you move on very soft muddy or bumpy ground you'll burn much more precious fuel then moving on a hard, flat surface. Before sending your AFV's into battle you need to be sure you support them with enough gasoline, no?

But I'm not a expert on this... just guessing

[GS_Guderian]

Originally posted by JasonC:

We all understand needing maps, but call those specialists "geographers" not "geologists". We understand needing to know the weather, but call those specialists "meteorologists". In English, a geologist, proper, studies soil and rock formations. Is German usage different, as to the extent of the term?

Ok,

maybe my answer was to short.

Among those Geo-specialists are Geographers as well as Geologists.

The Geologists provide data about available drining water, building material, evaluate if digging is possible (before an engineer tries it out ) and if the terrain will be passable by vehicles.