Equal forces

[chiavarm]

In a recent PBEM QB (‘41) I had several Russian tanks including only 1 kv. My opponent knocked out all of my tanks except the kv. I don’t think the jadgpanzer or panzer III had the firepower to do so. So the next game we chose ’43.

At what time period would you say the force quality is approximately equivalent?

i.e. If I were to say at summer 1943 the Russians and German equipment were not the same but could effectively defeat each other using historically available units.

[flamingknives]

You don't have to always take tanks you know.

For that matter, it isn't chess either. Fight in different terrain, use asymmetric forces, whatever.

The Germans in the game tend to field more tanks than they would have historically had, as the rarity value seems to be the quantities proportionate to the entire tank fleet rather that the likelihood of there being any within 50 miles of a given battle.

[Claw]

The equilizer is tactics. You simple cannot use a Russian force the same way as a similarly sized German force. Variables like reaction time, optics, gun characteristics (just to name a few)dictate that, yes, the German PZIVH can stand off 1500 meters and knock out T34s with relative inpunity. On the other hand, few German platoons can withstand a Russian SMG platoon's attack (if executed properly).

Something you'll have to experiment with, finding the best techniques to maximize a unit's and a force's strengths while minimizing the weaknesses.

[chiavarm]

Unfortunately I don’t think I made myself clear. I am not looking for an exact equal. (T34-85 = PIV) These are PBEM battles and could easily take a month or so to play. So it can get frustrating after three weeks, you are unable to defeat a unit because your units are not capable.

My forces were:

5 x t26 tanks

3 x t34 tanks

1 x KV

1 x platoon of pioneers

1 x rifle company

2 x 45(?) at guns

2 x trucks

1 x jeep

He had (to the best of my memory)

3 x PZ III

2 x jadgpanzer

1 x stug assault gun

some off map artillery

and Infantry

The terrain from my position was a hill sloping into open, flat area to mid-map. At mid map there were two forest areas in proximity of the objective flags.

The terrain from is position was high open, ground sloping at mid map with an area of trees on his right.

I advanced my infantry, at guns w/trucks and light tanks to the trees. I immediately lost three light tanks to enemy fire. Moving my T34’s to return fire I suppressed the enemy fire while losing a T34(hq). Moved my units into position. I expected the battle to be in the area where my group of trees in center map and his trees on his left. I guessed correctly. Lost both AT guns to PZ IIIs. A jadgpanze knocked out the remaining T34s. Off map artillery decimated my infantry in the wooded areas.

At this point I had in effect 1 KV, 2 T26s and a platoon of pioneers. His force did not appear to have taken any losses (later I found his Stug had sustained a gun Hit). In an attempt to maneuver my T26s out of harms way and engage the infantry in the woods, I lost them. So I positioned my lone KV in a group of three small, light buildings that were within 50 meters of woods occupied by the Germans and objective.

My opponent was unable to defeat the lone KV. My pioneers stopped any infantry advance and knocked out a PZ III. The KV knocked out a PZ III and a jagdpanzer.

The battle was a stalemate due to the KV but this was not known until well into the battle.

So in an attempt to avoid this type of outcome I want to know when is the best time period when the available equipment is capable, using the proper tactics, of defeating opposing units.

In my mind opponent clearly defeated me but his units didn’t have the ability to take out the KV.

What if I had taken a platoon of KV?

There must be a time when the available units were evenly matched.

[Renaud]

Probably early-43 around the time of the 3rd battle of Kharkov is the period you are looking for. The russian tanks were about the same but german tanks had been considerably upgunned/uparmored.

By mid 42 the germans were rolling out the PzIIIj and j(late). With rotkappchen (tungsten) ammo, which was readily available at this time, the 50l60 could defeat KVI armor in a close-to 90 degree impact angle and range under 500 meters. (hold fire until you can get 90-degree aspect angle on front, rear or side). The j(late) turret and upper hull armor could resist 76L41 AP hits from outside a few hundred meters. But not the lower hull, so you must stay hull-down. The pak37 also had stielgranate available which could kill KV's from any range, but sub-100 meter range is desirable for first-round hits. These ammunition types are not uncommon in early-mid 42, but are random in QB's so you might not get it...

By June '42 most german panzer divisions in the south were equipped with at least 12 PzIVg-lange model (75L43 gun) in preparation for Fall Blau. These could defeat KV-1 and T34 armor.

88's are always good, but seldom affordable in QB's of the size you specify and of course totally immobile. The 150IG is a good cheap alternative, but if you don't get any of the hollow-charge rounds you are in trouble vs KV. You might disable or cause abandonment though.

[ December 14, 2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Renaud ]

[JasonC]

There is no even time period if both sides cherry pick the strongest armor. Can't be, and isn't.

In 1941 the KV is a monster. Even the T-34s outclass anything the Germans have, though not by far enough to be invulnerable. Historically the Germans dealt with them via towed guns and to a lesser extent "hail fire" from tanks and smaller PAK. (In CM terms, shooting tons of shells even with penetration chance "none" and hoping for track and gun hits).

In 1942 the sides are as even as they get, about, but advantage Russians via the T-34, until the 30+50mm front StuG appears. Then it is far and away the strongest vehicle. It also isn't treated as rare even though it was, compared to the 50L60 Panzer IIIs and such.

In the first half of 1943 the Germans have the edge, from thick front StuGs and front Pz IV longs. The latter now have 80mm front hulls, and guns that kill T-34s at 1.5 km. They can be penetrated through the turret or with a side shot, so the edge is managable. The StuG isn't penetrably at all from the front by Russian 76mm.

In mid to late 1943, the Germans have Tigers which are effectively invulnerable to the common Russian weapons. To fight them they need special AT types that are treated as high rarity - 57mm ATGs towed, lend-lease Valentine IXs and Shermans (from the side), captured German tanks, or SU-152s. Even the SU-85 and on map 85mm AA don't suffice, because their ammo is so undermodeled in 1943.

In early 1944 the Russians get T-34/85s and then the better ISUs and IS-2s. The Germans have Panthers which are better than all of them, but killable through turret hits or flank shots. The edge to the Germans is there but moderate, and the Russians have other strengths (better infantry, etc).

If you want to avoid the specific problem you encountered, the easy way is to ban KVs in 1941 and Tigers, Elephants, and Brummbars before 1944.

A more elaborate way is to disallow any vehicle that can't be killed through at least one front plate by the standard enemy AT weapon of that era. Which means no KVs in 1941, no 30+50 StuGs in 1942, no Tigers, Panthers, Elephants, Brummbars, StuGs, or StuHs in 1943.

My own recommendation is to combine the first rule, on KVs and Tigers, with a rule that rariety is off if tanks in the second list are allowed. That lets either side take its rarer, specialized AT equipment to deal with the threat of heavies. I hope this helps.

[NameUsedBefore]

I say buy what you want, but then again I don't know near as much about the game as JasonC and others, but I'm learning. Anyway:

It sounds to me like you overestimated the strength of the T-34's a little too much. Sure the tanks themselves are great, but you have to take into account that the German's have better optics and usually more experienced crewmen (although I don't know if this was the case here). You may also have had faulty tactics, such as only showing one tank at a time or some other blunder which allowed him to pick-pocket you (your one T-34 appears, a trio of his Panzers target it and destroy it; another one of your T-34's appears... rinse and repeat).

Also note that most CM-battles are relatively close affairs. After a certain distance almost any tank can knock out another simply because they are so close. So try not to be too surprised when a Tiger is taken out by something you would never expect it to die from. Your opponent also could've destroyed your last remaining force if he simply took the time to destroy the entire area around it (such as the buildings you described). It seems while you made the mistakes early, he made the mistakes late.

[tar]

Although by far not guaranteed to produce even matchups, my preference is to let the computer pick forces for quick battles. One upside is that you will get (or have to) use equipment that you would normally never even consider. That makes things more interesting.

If your main concern, though, is that you want good matchups for long-term PBEM games, you shouldn't be playing quick battles anyway. You should use human-designed scenarios. There is a large supply of them and they often have ratings.

[JasonC]

Computer picked forces are neither balanced nor interesting. You very often find one side gets only light tanks and the other gets real AFVs that can eat them for breakfast. Why not flip a coin to see who wins? Pointless.

[chiavarm]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Why not flip a coin to see who wins? Pointless.