How do I avoid enemy artillery?

[David Chapuis]

I am wondering the best way to keep my infantry from being obliterated by enemy mortars and artillery. Also, if the enemy does start blasting me, should I move (seems like I would get blasted worse) or just try to lay low?

[Eric Alkema]

The short answer is: "do a search"

The slightly more helpful answer is: .... well, I guess that isn't how you do that.

If you figure out how to not get shelled in the first place, let me know.

[Edited because I don't know how to link to threads]

[ April 08, 2003, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Eric Alkema ]

[nevermind]

Originally posted by Eric Alkema:

The short answer is: "do a search"

The slightly more helpful answer is: check this thread

If you figure out how to not get shelled in the first place, let me know.

Check your link...it is screwy.

[Redwolf]

Anti-artillery tactics for CMBO:

http://thforums.com/CMBO/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=38

The model didn't change to CMBB, except that most of this is even more effective against the russians with their even slower artillery.

[PiggDogg]

Dodge,

The very short answer is: if the troops are in woods or open & if the arty is medium (105s, 120s, etc) or larger (4.5s, 150s, 155s, etc), withdraw diagonally to the rear immediately and without delay.

Cheers, Richard

[incarna2k1]

Have to second Pillar, spread out. Keep your squads in command though, or you're asking for routs. And accept the fact that sometimes you're just SOL concerning artillery and that you're going to have to grin and bear it. Also, mortars in particular are vulnerable to arty, I've noticed, try to keep them away from it because they get knocked out REAL easy.

I've noticed human opponents will tend to drop arty early so you might be able to take advantage of that.

[David Chapuis]

I checked some of those other links and this stuff is very helpful. But I am still wondering about moving out once the barrage starts. Should I try to crawl out of the central area, or is running better since you get out quicker? In real life (well, I should say from movies) it seems like when artillery comes, people just hit the deck and try to stay low

[Mantra]

Originally posted by Cpl Dodge:

I checked some of those other links and this stuff is very helpful. But I am still wondering about moving out once the barrage starts. Should I try to crawl out of the central area, or is running better since you get out quicker? In real life (well, I should say from movies) it seems like when artillery comes, people just hit the deck and try to stay low

Run,crawl, hide or pray, I'll get you all the same.

[ April 08, 2003, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Mantra ]

[JasonC]

The main problem with running after the shells have started landing is "cover panic". If the men are in open ground, they ignore their orders and instead try to crawl toward the nearest cover tile. Unless they are under direct fire and said cover is 10m away or less, that is typically a lousy idea. They don't make it, they are moving, they are often facing the wrong way, and they are getting exhausted. Too many men crawl toward the same spot, making a perfect arty target.

When you see men already in "cover panic", clear the order entirely (do not just change the speed and waypoint - they will go back to cover panic on the next near miss) - backspace or "halt". Do not try to move. They need a minute. The following minute, if a movement is still imperative, use "advance" toward the nearest body of cover, avoiding bunching up.

If your men have cover enough to avoid "cover panic", or if they are only at "alerted" or "OK" in morale terms and not yet sneaking sideways, then you can afford to give them orders to get out of the way of the barrage. The best time for it is when you see the spotting round, without waiting for the actual barrage.

The heavier the caliber, the more essential it is to get out of the beaten zone, and the longer the interval between shell impacts. Those also scatter, so only 1-2 in each "flight" of 4 is likely to land nearby. Some units might get "tagged" and pin, remaining trapped under the barrage. But most will get clear of a heavy one. Since only those that get clear will live, that's rather important.

Light arty, on the other hand, comes down much faster. It is less essential to get clear, because unlike the heavy stuff it will not kill or break everyone under the barrage footprint. Moving in the open under light barrages is a mistake, particularly with low quality troops. So if you have greens getting 81mm mortared in the open, forget about dodging, clear all movement orders, and ride it out.

You should expect the enemy to succeed in causing delay, and in upsetting any plans you were in the middle of executing, whenever he is willing to spend FO ammo to do so. Throw away the plan for the platoon hit. What is at stake is whether the lasting damage, 5 minutes after the barrage, repays his cost or doesn't.

The artillery shooter's problem is that light stuff doesn't kill (it pins to panics, but does not annihilate), heavy stuff can be dodged (long intervals between shells, narrow beaten zone along north south axis), and both are cost and ammo limited. While infantry rallies.

Historically, dodging was not used to avoid heavy arty. But it also wasn't fired in such small quantities in such tight sheafs. Players try to get many small salvos out of a big FO because they have very few shells and want to make them last. You often see half minute, at most minute and a half shoots, "walked" around chasing individual platoons.

Historically, you'd be much more likely to see 2-3 whole modules fired, but using "target wide". You can't dodge an area that big, and a whole company area was the target. That number of big shells coming down will provide meaningful coverage even of that large an area. That is why they sat still even in heavy shelling.

[Broken]

Pillar has the right idea here, don't get bunched up, and try to attract arty onto "decoy" targets - halfsquads masquerading as platoons, etc.

If you have time to dodge the arty, for example only a spotting round has landed and you have the time budget to get your guys out of the way, north-south movement is better than east-west due to the shape of the arty impact pattern.

If you are caught in a barrage, often the best thing is sit tight, CMBB arty does a lot more damage to moving infantry than to stationary.

[JasonC]

Yes, pinning infantry before hitting them with heavy stuff helps. But few can afford to use both an 81mm module and a 105mm or larger module on a lone infantry platoon. Or even a fraction of the former along with the latter.

A much more common case is HMGs preventing movement out of a modest body of cover, while a medium or heavy modules clobbers that cover. This blocks sideways dodges, forward progress, and sitting still. But backing up is often still an option. If you are in cover, it typically leaves a blind spot behind.

Another mix that works is waiting until a platoon is in the open or poor cover like a wheatfield, then pinning them with foot HMG teams or light armor MGs, and breaking them with light arty - 75-82mm stuff.

It really isn't much of a trick to handle infantry in the open, though. Any investment of a roughly equal number of points shooting at them will work. Whether they are broken for good, and how much ammo the task eats up, is what is at stake.

As for the comment that it is best to sit still because CMBB hurts moving infantry more, I still find it untrue for heavy arty, if the men aren't yet in "cover panic". If they are, they won't move successfully whether you order it or not, and will break somewhat more easily if you keep pushing them to try. But an on target heavy module is going to plaster them if you stick around, even if you sit still.

With heavy stuff, from spotting round to the first few "flights" of shells, not that many land over a relatively long period of time. The men can move 50-100m in that period of time. Beaten zones are quite small, and the targeting typically isn't perfect to begin with, so you don't need to make it the full width of the barrage.

If morale is still intact and you use "advance" orders, you will get clear with most of the platoon. Which is more than you can say for sitting still under 150mm and larger calibers. If you give those time to come down, you will not end with one unit halved, others missing a man or two, and some panicking. You will have 2 broken half squads with everybody else dead.

[Broken]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Yes, pinning infantry before hitting them with heavy stuff helps. But few can afford to use both an 81mm module and a 105mm or larger module on a lone infantry platoon. Or even a fraction of the former along with the latter.

A much more common case is HMGs preventing movement out of a modest body of cover, while a medium or heavy modules clobbers that cover. This blocks sideways dodges, forward progress, and sitting still. But backing up is often still an option. If you are in cover, it typically leaves a blind spot behind.

Another mix that works is waiting until a platoon is in the open or poor cover like a wheatfield, then pinning them with foot HMG teams or light armor MGs, and breaking them with light arty - 75-82mm stuff.

It really isn't much of a trick to handle infantry in the open, though. Any investment of a roughly equal number of points shooting at them will work. Whether they are broken for good, and how much ammo the task eats up, is what is at stake.

As for the comment that it is best to sit still because CMBB hurts moving infantry more, I still find it untrue for heavy arty, if the men aren't yet in "cover panic". If they are, they won't move successfully whether you order it or not, and will break somewhat more easily if you keep pushing them to try. But an on target heavy module is going to plaster them if you stick around, even if you sit still.

With heavy stuff, from spotting round to the first few "flights" of shells, not that many land over a relatively long period of time. The men can move 50-100m in that period of time. Beaten zones are quite small, and the targeting typically isn't perfect to begin with, so you don't need to make it the full width of the barrage.

If morale is still intact and you use "advance" orders, you will get clear with most of the platoon. Which is more than you can say for sitting still under 150mm and larger calibers. If you give those time to come down, you will not end with one unit halved, others missing a man or two, and some panicking. You will have 2 broken half squads with everybody else dead.

I agree with the pinning idea, the best time to hit with arty is when the opposing infantry is engaged with yours or is under MG fire. Definite force multiplier effect.

In terms of sitting still under arty fire, I find this works well for mortars, including the 120mms. You only get 30 seconds warning between the spotting round and FFE, so moving "out from under" is difficult.

Against the big stuff, like the 150mms, you have 60 seconds warning from the first spotting round. For attacking infantry, it is best to get the hell out of there, even if it requires using the Withdraw command. For reasonably dispersed (squad frontage of 20 meters or more) defending infantry in Foxholes and Trenches, you still are often better off staying put, you get a defensive bonus from the foxholes and trenches. Also, the attacker may be just dropping a few rounds to flush you out. Even so, staying put will cost you 30-60% casualties, even with a dug-in dispersed platoon, if the attacker drops the whole 150mm module on you. That is actually not a bad trade-off considering the relative prices of a 150mm module (~260 pts) and an infantry platoon (~100 pts).

[David Chapuis]

Run,crawl, hide or pray, I'll get you all the same.

that is what I am worried about.

[Redmow]

If on the attack, I keep moving to make it harder for spotters to correct on target. If on the defense, I keep a reserve to fill the depleted ranks once hit. But, I do tend to find that the AI will arty one spot while the main attack is at another spot. But a human player is another thing entirely.