"FALL WEISS" Polish Campaign

[patboy]

-------------------------------------------------

In response to your request I'm trying to give to CM community a CM expansion as DavidI already done with CM ETO & CM Normandy, and Junk2drive done with CM Pacific or Operation SEALION.

This expansion need CMBB reinstallation and some mods I'm working on, since several months.

This CM expansion is ambitious and fastidious work I don't thought when I started the project, that's why I request some help from CM community "Scenarios builders" and modders.

This CM expansion called "Fall Weiss" use some scenarios already done by Mike T with CMBO game ; converted by me to CMBB game. IIRC there are not so much scenarios built about Polish campaign.

Some scenarios existing need to be converted to CMBB game, but I think after release, I'm sure "Scenarios designers" could give us some Operation(any existing) & battle scenarios.

If anyone is interested by CM "FALL WEISS" Polish campaign "expansion", you can email me or talk about on this forum.

Cheers

Pat

[ September 27, 2006, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: patboy ]

[patboy]

Here some pics

Using Tarkus interface with few modification.(Title is not added at this time)

Panzers screen may not represent the final product.

You can see in interface new photos from early war tank crew.

Polish Infantry

Lkw MBL3000

and more in few time.....

Cheers

Pat

[Buq-Buq]

patboy:

I like the idea. I installed a second copy of CMAK to implement DavidI's CMETO, and I have really enjoyed the flexibility that it gives with regard to mods and just the general look and feel of the game.

I hope that you will have the ability to make this FALL WEISS . . . expansion(?) . . . to CMBB as an all-in-one download (or, perhaps three downloads as DavidI did with CMETO). I understand that hosting & bandwidth gets very problematical with such a large download, but the convenience factor is pretty high.

You probably would want to contact DavidI with respect to including scenarios in this set.

I suppose that there is no chance of Soviet vs Polish actions in FALL WEISS, due to the troop restrictions of CMBB . . .

Mark

[patboy]

Originally posted by Buq-Buq:

patboy:

I like the idea. I installed a second copy of CMAK to implement DavidI's CMETO, and I have really enjoyed the flexibility that it gives with regard to mods and just the general look and feel of the game.

I hope that you will have the ability to make this FALL WEISS . . . expansion(?) . . . to CMBB as an all-in-one download (or, perhaps three downloads as DavidI did with CMETO). I understand that hosting & bandwidth gets very problematical with such a large download, but the convenience factor is pretty high.

You probably would want to contact DavidI with respect to including scenarios in this set.

I suppose that there is no chance of Soviet vs Polish actions in FALL WEISS, due to the troop restrictions of CMBB . . .

Mark

Thanks Mark for your encouragments!

I don't think "Fall Weiss" expansion could be released all in one download, isn't necessary !

All mods I used are already available at cmmods.com, except some mods I working on. I'll give a mods list when I'll upload mods and scenarios.

CMBB terrain normally is correct for Central Europe area but you can change what you want as the same manner you have certainly done with CMBB."sample Gurra shaks are perfect for Poland1939".

About Soviet vs Polish actions ; don't forget the Polish campaign was short 01.09.39 to 28.09.39 and the main armed Polish forces is turned against Germans(Polish losses : 66000 dead & 133000 injured, German losses : 16000 dead & 32000 injured). Russian invaded Poland around 17.09.39.(Russian losses : 996 dead & 2000 injured not so much actions in perspective). Anyway isn't possible to have Russian vs Polish in CMBB game 'cause they are allied and in "Fall Weiss" I use Russian as Polish and renumbering waw files for Polish instead Russian voices.

Cheers

Pat

[Fußball]

Originally posted by patboy:

In response to your request I'm trying to give to CM community a CM expansion as DavidI already done with CM ETO & CM Normandy, and Junk2drive done with CM Pacific or Operation SEALION.

Thanks for your contributions. I am sure you have done great work. I am not sure what it is but I am not too much into the full conversions. I very much like the idea of CMETO but I never wanted to give it a try. :confused: Maybe its just that deep down its still like playing the original game to me.

You do great work, don't get me wrong. I have several of your armor mods on my games.

Tschüß!

Erich

[Buq-Buq]

Pat:

Please please please consider releasing this as a single download. The convenience factor of a single download (alá CMETO) as opposed to a list of mods to find and download (and install) makes a single download very enticing. For some players, the convenience could mean the difference between using the expansion and not using it.

I speak from experience on this point. In addition to CMETO, I also have a CM:Pacific and CM:Blitzkrieg installation for CMAK on my machine. Both CM:Pacific and CM:Blitzkrieg (aka Sealion) were done by tracking down mods from various lists. It can be done — and I have to say that I really like the results. CM:Pacific and CM:Blitzkrieg are really cool, fun additions to my Combat Mission gaming experience.

But I don't know if I ever want to do a "search for these mods from this site" installation of a CM Expansion again. It was a lot of work and time to find all of that stuff. And quite frankly, there are probably other things that I could be doing with my time.

I understand about the Soviets vs Polish bit.

Anyway, thanks for doing this stuff. I look forward to trying it out — in whatever format I have to download it. It looks like it will be fun, and add a great new dimension to CMBB. Good job.

Oh, by the way, I'd like to thank everyone involved in the efforts to make the CM:Pacific and CM:Blitzkrieg (aka Sealion) expansions, especially junk2drive and Andreas, who got me excited about the concepts with their postings in this Forum. And I hope that I do not appear ungrateful to all the modders who expend a heckuva lot of their own time and work to create these beautiful mods that make our gaming experience richer. That is definitely not my intent. But to have these great resources available as an easily accessible single download . . . heaven. All my ranting about searching for mods aside, I have really enjoyed these expansions — and would encourage others to try them as well.

Mark

[Mad Russian]

Don't forget that the Finns have Soviet equipment too if you need to use that in your scenarios for doing odd national mixes.

[John Kettler]

patboy,

Veddy interestink! Nice 7TPdw rendering, BTW. Don't have the URLs handy, but there are several sites devoted to Polish armor. There's a Zaloga Osprey? blitzkrieg book with some good vehicle schemes and some historical data. The U.S. government years ago published a paperback sized hardbound historical study titled THE POLISH CAMPAIGN, which analyzes the whole thing and has lots of maps. Could be very useful. Believe there was a major Polish counterattack at the Bzura, which hurt the Germans badly for a time. If not already included, please be sure to have at least one scenario featuring street fighting in Warsaw. I recall that the Germans got cut up badly, especially in armor, in that clash.

Overall, I think your idea is pretty clever, since the Polish tanks (not tankettes) were essentially the same as the Russian T-26 series, both Vickers licenses. For turretless tankettes, may I suggest

Italian L33s as fairly good stand-ins? Artillery should be fairly comparable (Russian 152mm howitzer for French designed 150mm howitzer, but may want to use 122mm howitzer because of delay issues) but I suspect the 47mm Bofors would be much better than the Russian 45mm. Not sure what to suggest. AT-4s could stand in for unarmored Polish gun tractors, but am not sure what to recommend for the armored ones. They were basically Bren carrier (Carden-Lloyd)

designs, but I don't know whether you can steal Lend-Lease Bren carriers to substitute or whether they can hold the entire gun crew. Too bad about the cavalry (for lots of reasons), but maybe you can use the light vehicle substitution plan someone proposed to get something like the capabilities--with appropriate speed limits, of course! Luftwaffe ground attack aircraft would be Stukas and Hs-123s. BTW, recent scholarship has shown that Luftwaffe losses to the Polish Air Force were much higher than previously thought. They may have been shot down in droves, but they sold themselves dearly.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ November 27, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Buq-Buq]

Steve:

That's a great idea; the Finns could substitute as Soviets while the Soviets are substituting as the Poles. I've only done a cursory first glance at the Finn OB — mainly looking at AFVs, since I know those best — and you're right, the Finns have almost all that you would need to represent the Soviets in 1939.

Actually, all you'd have to do to convert the Finns to Soviets is renumber the .bmp & .wav files for the various items. What an excellent way to get the Soviets into the Expansion as well!

I had been thinking of trying to use the (Axis) Romanians as the Poles in Poles vs Soviets scenarios. Now that is getting WAY confusing! It would probably work in a pinch, but there would be the issue of vehicles. Not much crossover, only the R-35. Didn't the Poles have a battalion of R-35s?

Nope, Finns as Soviets in 1939 Poland scenarios is the way to go.

Pat! Are you up for more work?

Great idea, Steve.

Mark

[patboy]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

Don't forget that the Finns have Soviet equipment too if you need to use that in your scenarios for doing odd national mixes.

Hi Panther Commander, Thanks for your interest.

I don't forget to use finns, but for others reason, they have Vickers E in inventory and it looks like 7TP polish tank. Many have been captured by German and recoloured in Grau scheme.

Finn Infantry use the same helmet as German.

Cheers

Pat

[ November 27, 2005, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: patboy ]

[patboy]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

patboy,

Veddy interestink! Nice 7TPdw rendering, BTW. Don't have the URLs handy, but there are several sites devoted to Polish armor. There's a Zaloga Osprey? blitzkrieg book with some good vehicle schemes and some historical data. The U.S. government years ago published a paperback sized hardbound historical study titled THE POLISH CAMPAIGN, which analyzes the whole thing and has lots of maps. Could be very useful. Believe there was a major Polish counterattack at the Bzura, which hurt the Germans badly for a time. If not already included, please be sure to have at least one scenario featuring street fighting in Warsaw. I recall that the Germans got cut up badly, especially in armor, in that clash.

Overall, I think your idea is pretty clever, since the Polish tanks (not tankettes) were essentially the same as the Russian T-26 series, both Vickers licenses. For turretless tankettes, may I suggest

Italian L33s as fairly good stand-ins? Artillery should be fairly comparable (Russian 152mm howitzer for French designed 150mm howitzer, but may want to use 122mm howitzer because of delay issues) but I suspect the 47mm Bofors would be much better than the Russian 45mm. Not sure what to suggest. AT-4s could stand in for unarmored Polish gun tractors, but am not sure what to recommend for the armored ones. They were basically Bren carrier (Carden-Lloyd)

designs, but I don't know whether you can steal Lend-Lease Bren carriers to substitute or whether they can hold the entire gun crew. Too bad about the cavalry (for lots of reasons), but maybe you can use the light vehicle substitution plan someone proposed to get something like the capabilities--with appropriate speed limits, of course! Luftwaffe ground attack aircraft would be Stukas and Hs-123s. BTW, recent scholarship has shown that Luftwaffe losses to the Polish Air Force were much higher than previously thought. They may have been shot down in droves, but they sold themselves dearly.

Regards,

John Kettler

Hi john, thanks for your ideas ! From the Russian side (Polish in Fall Weiss) we can use T26 1931 as 7TP dual turret tank.

and I would like use T40 as tankette TKS with 20mm gun but I must redraw running gear.

BA20 could be WZ 34.

All these mod need to be redo with Polish camo.

Thanks again for your help

Cheers

Pat

[patboy]

Originally posted by Buq-Buq:

Didn't the Poles have a battalion of R-35s?

Nope, Finns as Soviets in 1939 Poland scenarios is the way to go.

Pat! Are you up for more work?

Great idea, Steve.

Mark

Yes they have one, the 21 st light tank battalion was equipped with 52 or 53 R-35 but I don't know If they have time to fight, I only know they take refuge in Romania.

Cheers

Pat

[Count D'Ten]

Ahh, just found this thread. Nice.

The Polish R-35's were never committed -- which doesn't mean they couldn't have been. But I don't know whether they had the short barreled 37MM, as in the game in Romanian stock, or the long barreled, as with the H-39's that the Germans have in their CMBB inventory.

One sad note in the proposed substitutions, is that the 7TP had 40mm armor max, far more than the generic T-26. Perhaps the T-26 Ektrnazy could be used for better defensive modeling? And the problems with the 45mm modeling have already been mentioned.

Is there a way to defeat the bad 45mmm ammo and the command delays the game has built into the early war Russians?

Too bad the Russians don't have enough captured German equipment to do the substituions the onther way. Then you could use the Romanian R-2 (which is really a Czech Lt-35) whose armor and gun I suspect are much more like the Polish 7TP.

May all your hard work be rewarded,

--CdT

[John Kettler]

Patboy,

You're welcome. Was blown away by the color TKS photo. George Bradford and the troops at AFV News

(don't have URL handy) would probably be very interested in that one. Didn't know such an image even existed! Obviously, I got my tankettes confused, having forgotten that the TKS had a 20mm cannon. Sorry about that!

Buq-Buq and Panther Commander,

Clever idea!

Count D'Ten,

Good ideas and valuable insights. Since I've barely begun playing CMBB, am going to guess that T-26 Ektrnazy is some better armored variant of the T-26. Never heard of it but may now have to break out Milsom's RUSSIAN TANKS 1917-1970 and see what it has to say on the subject.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Count D'Ten]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Count D'Ten,

Good ideas and valuable insights. Since I've barely begun playing CMBB, am going to guess that T-26 Ektrnazy is some better armored variant of the T-26. Never heard of it but may now have to break out Milsom's RUSSIAN TANKS 1917-1970 and see what it has to say on the subject.

Sorry, mangled that name. The game has it as the T-26E "Ekranirovanniy" tank. I've read that the term means "shielded" (i.e. "extra armor"). It's the only T-26 that can stand up to the Axis tanks, even briefly.

Unfortunately, I've never been able to find anything on it outside of CMBB. I have found book references to T-26's with better, welded armor after the Japanese, and then there are comments in The Russian Battlfield site, but they don't appear reflected in the game. :confused:

I'm hardly an expert.

[John Kettler]

Count D'Ten,

It is in Milsom! The description of the beastie, nomenclature T-26S, is on pp. 88-89 (pic on 89), and the tabular material is in the leftmost column of page 164 (Appendices).

Regards,

John Kettler

[Count D'Ten]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Count D'Ten,

It is in Milsom! The description of the beastie, nomenclature T-26S, is on pp. 88-89 (pic on 89), and the tabular material is in the leftmost column of page 164 (Appendices).

Hi John, I'm afraid I don't have the Milsom book, or library access to it (last I checked). Though I agree that the T-26S as described in various places fits the bill -- but the T-26S in the game is reduced to 15mm all around just like every other T-26 except for the T-26E ("shielded"). There are references to the Russians adding armor to older T-26's after their failure against the Japanese (the BT-7's with slightly better frontal armor faired better). I think the game designers followed that reference but not other references to the improved T-26S's -- not that either matters much in most battles.

So -- maybe -- the game designers made a mistake there. It's not impossible, and they seem to have gotten so much else right (I also wish they'd have fudged together a stalking horse for the T-28 and T-35, but that's another story).

You know, for a guy who isn't an expert, I sure talk alot. :eek: Sorry.

[John Kettler]

patboy,

Here's the link for a truly great Polish armor site.

Many other goodies there, too.

http://derela.republika.pl/armcarpl.htm

Achtungpanzer.com has a whole section on Fall Weiss,

but I couldn't get any of the graphics to display properly. The text, though, was meaty, and the tabular material most useful.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Zalgiris 1410]

Orrigionally posted by Count D'Ten

The Polish R-35's were never committed -- which doesn't mean they couldn't have been. But I don't know whether they had the short barreled 37MM, as in the game in Romanian stock, or the long barreled, as with the H-39's that the Germans have in their CMBB inventory.

Definately the short barrelled version since the French only started putting the longer ones in their inproved H-35's, the H-39's from late 1939 IIRC but never in any of even their own R-35's AIUI.

This 'Fall Weiss' / Polish campainge thing is a bloody good idea, all the best Patboy.

[patboy]

Thanks all for your help and comment, I post today some WIP mods :

Cheers

Pat

[John Kettler]

patboy,

Two German videos on invasion of Poland here near top.

http://ihffilm.com/ww2---german-side.html

Some newly discovered color footage here.

http://ihffilm.com/thirreicinco1.html

Frank Capra's take on early German invasions here.

http://ihffilm.com/31.html

Hope these help your "war effort."

Regards,

John Kettler

[Mike Summers]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

patboy,

Two German videos on invasion of Poland here near top.

http://ihffilm.com/ww2---german-side.html

Some newly discovered color footage here.

http://ihffilm.com/thirreicinco1.html

Frank Capra's take on early German invasions here.

http://ihffilm.com/31.html

Hope these help your "war effort."

Regards,

John Kettler

Interesting site for the videos. Have you (or anyone else) ordered from this outfit? Would be interested in seeing *some* of the color footage.

[John Kettler]

Navy Mule,

I haven't, but some here have. At least one forum member has a copy of Manner gegen Panzer (Men against tanks) from that site. I distinctly recall reading about it.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Noonan]

Hi there, I was trying to contact by email with Patboy regarding the Polish Campaign.

I am very interested in any work made so far about this project.

Could someone contact me to send me at least the scenarios?

I was looking for them at the Depot but with no luck.

I was preparing by myself some documentation and scenarios to recreate the first part of the WWII when I saw this post.

Thanks a lot in advance!!

My mail is unaigomATgmail.com

[Habidis]

One more interested here, please don't forget this nice idea of a polish campaign, I'd appreciate it a lot!