Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Ok... I was playing a game today, a QB. I was playing the Germans, attacking the AI Soviets. On the left side of the map, he had a group of infantry. One squad saw the firepower of a full rifle platoon and 3 HMG teams directed at them. And... They remained unsuppressed. Uh...what the hell? How could one remain above ground, returning fire, without being shot to death when there are 3 HMGs, 3 LMGs, and a bunch of rifles all being fired at one's location? I am glad that the game allows for fanaticism, but that was just plain retarded and unrealistic. I don't care how fanatic a group of soldiers are, their fanaticism won't stop bullets. They'll die just like anyone else once they are shot. Finally, after a couple turns of all this firepower being directed at the one (!) squad, I sent a squad from another platoon (which had been following the first that was laying down "suppressive" fire) advancing towards the enemy. Of course, the enemy unit popped right back up with my advancing squad about 50 m away, opened fire, killed 2 guys, and sent the rest routing. Naturally, the 3 MG42s and all the rest weren't quite enough to keep these guys pinned. At this point, I got pissed off and just had everyone on the left side of the map assault this one squad. I finally kill these supermen...and find out it was a platoon headquarters. Ok, that made me quit CM and I was even more annoyed. 3 guys. There were 3 guys, guys immune to rifle and MG bullets striking them in the face, who were nearly impossible to suppress, and somehow managed to stand up again, and fire, killing my advancing troops. Yea right. That's total BS. The second they stood up, they would have all died from the volume of firepower being directed at them. Not to mention the previous 3 or 4 turns they remained upright, happy as can be, returning fire at the platoon I had been using initially to prepare for the follow-ons to advance. And the 3 MG42s. I have seen this a number of times, and now I've really felt a need to post about it. A single superhuman squad or platoon leader, that simply will not go to ground, nor take any casualties even when facing down full platoons from close range along with HMGs providing fire support. From the way CM portrays things sometimes, the Russians only needed waves of platoon HQs at Bagration, and that's how they inflicted such a massive defeat on the Germans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Will you posting the by-now obligatory half-dozen complimentary posts on the same subject and then ignoring all the responses, as per syllabus? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 sounds like an 'audie murphy' platoon hq... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Truth, as they say, is stranger than fiction. I've read of similar things (in several different historical millieus) occuring in Real Life. "Sometimes you et the bar, and sometimes the bar et's you" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Malan Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 No danger of a saved game I take it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Beavis ! If this pissed you off so much, that means you think CMBB is a great "game" ! Otherwise, if you thought it suck, you wouldn't be so upset. Turn your negative energie into positive, and send the save turn file to somebody of BFC to check it. Monty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I have a question for Beavis. Was the HQ in a trench? If so, they would be nearly impervious to incoming rifle caliber fire. Another question: How far away were the three HMGs etc.? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Walk out into nature with a friend. Have your friend wear grey or green clothing. Find a wooded field. While you turn around, have your friend walk away 200 meter, lie down facing you, making sure that he can see you. Then turn around and try to spot him. Next, have that friend yell and make a lot of noise. Now try and see if you can spot him. Next, consider that in the situation you described, the distance was probably more than 200m, the troops where probably dug in and camoflaged, had a lot more experience. The incoming fire, while directed at those three men, were probably area fire; it was aimed at the area where they where. Only short ranges, exposed targets or scoped weapons will allow direct observation of the target you're firing at. Sure, you can see the gunsmoke of their rifles, perhaps a muzzle flash, and certainly the ground being ripped up by three HMGs hosing down the area. But probably not very much of the actual people there. Finally, returning fire doesn't require one to stand up and take the incoming HMG fire in the face. Peeking out between two branches of the bush and squeezing off one aimed shot is enough. /SirReal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Finally after years of seeing this exact same thing in my games starting way back with CMBO and then to my horror in my brand new and improved CMBB someone else sees it and thinks it's pure lame. I have posted about it several times back when playing CMBO myself but finally gave up after everybody and their mother jumbed in making excuses and reasons for it. So it is nice to see that I am not the only one that feels it's ridiculous and highly unrealistic. I'm afraid however you'll just have to learn to deal with it as I have done or it'll drive you crazy each time it happens. I even stopped playing scenarios for a long time so I could at least could edit HQ units in battles I designed where they had less ammo, no special skills and were green to correct this silly and unbelievable phenomenon. Anyway, I finally got over it and started playing scenaros again due to Pbem's and just think of all HQ units as being composed of a full sqaud as well as the HQ units themselves. But if it helps please put me down as one that agrees wholeheartedly with you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 hmmm MY hq units always die very quickly, it seems those guys attracks bullets like a magnet. btw i think fanatism DO play an important role, fanatism guys wont be pinned down, but when you see the guys standing up, that is not meaning they all are standing up, but they shoot from lying or prone position offcourse. Monty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by Sailor Malan: No danger of a saved game I take it? Unfortunately, no. I got frustrated, but I didn't think of posting until later that night. It happens enough, however, that I can try a few more battles and gather a few save game files. Pay attention next time you're doing an attack. Platoon HQs, 3 guys, are sometimes immune to everything you throw at them. You have to close assault them and cut their heads off in order to defeat them. Simple MG and rifle fire isn't enough. Argh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by Monty: Beavis ! If this pissed you off so much, that means you think CMBB is a great "game" ! Otherwise, if you thought it suck, you wouldn't be so upset. Turn your negative energie into positive, and send the save turn file to somebody of BFC to check it. Monty I do think it's a great game But this issue, which has existed since the first CM, is so very lame and frustrating. I think there is a weird issue with the code relating to platoon HQs that makes them "tougher" than regular infantry squads. However, I have also seen, less frequently, the same phenomenon with full rifle squads. I think that there might be a problem with the relations in the code between fanaticism and "kill" probability. Perhaps. I'm just guessing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: I have a question for Beavis. Was the HQ in a trench? If so, they would be nearly impervious to incoming rifle caliber fire. Another question: How far away were the three HMGs etc.? Michael The platoon HQ was in a foxhole; I agree that being in a trench would have made it a bit easier to accept. The HMGs were about... 250 m from the HQ? I don't remember exactly. Not super-close, but not very far away either. I had them on a hill, 2 in a building...they had a clear line of sight to the enemy. My contention is that doing anything but peeing one's pants and lying at the bottom of one's foxhole when facing that volume of firepower would result in getting killed. Rather quickly. This HQ was green as well. I was facing green and conscript Soviets with (mostly) regular Germans. They didn't break, and they didn't get killed. They simply remained upright, returning fire. I can't accept that; if it was really that difficult to pin 3 guys, the Germans wouldn't have been able to conquer Denmark. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by SirReal: Walk out into nature with a friend. Have your friend wear grey or green clothing. Find a wooded field. While you turn around, have your friend walk away 200 meter, lie down facing you, making sure that he can see you. Then turn around and try to spot him. Next, have that friend yell and make a lot of noise. Now try and see if you can spot him. Next, consider that in the situation you described, the distance was probably more than 200m, the troops where probably dug in and camoflaged, had a lot more experience. The incoming fire, while directed at those three men, were probably area fire; it was aimed at the area where they where. Only short ranges, exposed targets or scoped weapons will allow direct observation of the target you're firing at. Sure, you can see the gunsmoke of their rifles, perhaps a muzzle flash, and certainly the ground being ripped up by three HMGs hosing down the area. But probably not very much of the actual people there. Finally, returning fire doesn't require one to stand up and take the incoming HMG fire in the face. Peeking out between two branches of the bush and squeezing off one aimed shot is enough. /SirReal Ok, there's some truth to what you say. But I still think what I observed in this game, and others, is unrealistic. Hang on The rifle platoon (full strength, no casualties at this point) was about 130 m from the enemy platoon HQ. The HQ was in a foxhole, green (as I later found out), composed of 3 guys, and they were firing at me. From 130 m, I'd see the muzzle flashes and know where they were. The MG teams I had firing at the same HQ, even though they were around 250 m away, had an observer guy with binoculars to direct fire...he'd be able to observe muzzle flashes as well. Anyway, the MGs are supposed to provide area suppression, not precision fire, which they could easily do at 250 m. The sheer volume of firepower being directed at that very small area, at 3 guys, would preclude exposing oneself to take shots. Particularly with green troops; they'd be busy soiling themselves and praying before thinking of firing back. Now I'm not saying that all that firepower should result in automatic death for the HQ. But they most certainly would go to ground, and not be firing back. Particularly for the 3 or 4 turns I was directing all that fire at them. Finally, when they do go to ground, and I send a portion of another platoon to advance on the foxhole, they pop back up, not minding the multiple MG fire and the fire of the entire other platoon from 130 m, shoot, kill two guys, and the rest of the squad runs away. That just isn't how things happened. Finally, like I said in the first post, I had to send in a massive assault wave to finish off these 3 supermen green troops. I had to go into their foxholes and cut their heads off to finally get them to stop firing at my guys. Of course, they killed one more of my guys hand-to-hand (they must have been trained in jujitsu as well) before finally being wiped out. God help me if they had been veterans; I would have needed tactical nuclear weapons to kill or rout them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by lcm1947: Finally after years of seeing this exact same thing in my games starting way back with CMBO and then to my horror in my brand new and improved CMBB someone else sees it and thinks it's pure lame. I have posted about it several times back when playing CMBO myself but finally gave up after everybody and their mother jumbed in making excuses and reasons for it. So it is nice to see that I am not the only one that feels it's ridiculous and highly unrealistic. I'm afraid however you'll just have to learn to deal with it as I have done or it'll drive you crazy each time it happens. I even stopped playing scenarios for a long time so I could at least could edit HQ units in battles I designed where they had less ammo, no special skills and were green to correct this silly and unbelievable phenomenon. Anyway, I finally got over it and started playing scenaros again due to Pbem's and just think of all HQ units as being composed of a full sqaud as well as the HQ units themselves. But if it helps please put me down as one that agrees wholeheartedly with you. Thanks for the support I think this aspect detracts from the game quite a bit; I hope Steve and the guys take a look at it. It sucks wasting huge volumes of limited ammo upon 3 (or 4...heh...the German HQs are also made of ironmen) guys that simply refuse to rout or die. And of course, when you assault them, they manage to cause a few casualties to your guys before giving up the ghost. Arggghhh! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by Monty: hmmm MY hq units always die very quickly, it seems those guys attracks bullets like a magnet. btw i think fanatism DO play an important role, fanatism guys wont be pinned down, but when you see the guys standing up, that is not meaning they all are standing up, but they shoot from lying or prone position offcourse. Monty True, they are represented in the game as kneeling or standing, but they would really be firing prone. But I don't think it's realistic to say that 3 green troops would make any attempt at all to expose themselves to the fire of 3 HMGs, 3 LMGs, and...a bunch of riflemen. heh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by manchildstein II: sounds like an 'audie murphy' platoon hq... I don't mind portraying bravery, but even Audie wasn't bullet-proof 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by Sgt. Beavis: The rifle platoon (full strength, no casualties at this point) was about 130 m from the enemy platoon HQ. The HQ was in a foxhole, green (as I later found out), composed of 3 guys, and they were firing at me. From 130 m, I'd see the muzzle flashes and know where they were. The MG teams I had firing at the same HQ, even though they were around 250 m away, had an observer guy with binoculars to direct fire...he'd be able to observe muzzle flashes as well. Anyway, the MGs are supposed to provide area suppression, not precision fire, which they could easily do at 250 m. The sheer volume of firepower being directed at that very small area, at 3 guys, would preclude exposing oneself to take shots. Particularly with green troops; they'd be busy soiling themselves and praying before thinking of firing back. Now I'm not saying that all that firepower should result in automatic death for the HQ. But they most certainly would go to ground, and not be firing back. Particularly for the 3 or 4 turns I was directing all that fire at them. Finally, when they do go to ground, and I send a portion of another platoon to advance on the foxhole, they pop back up, not minding the multiple MG fire and the fire of the entire other platoon from 130 m, shoot, kill two guys, and the rest of the squad runs away. That just isn't how things happened. Finally, like I said in the first post, I had to send in a massive assault wave to finish off these 3 supermen green troops. I had to go into their foxholes and cut their heads off to finally get them to stop firing at my guys. Of course, they killed one more of my guys hand-to-hand (they must have been trained in jujitsu as well) before finally being wiped out. God help me if they had been veterans; I would have needed tactical nuclear weapons to kill or rout them. Well, those three guys were obviously fanatical. Given that, it comes down to the fact that you actually have to kill them in order to disable them, since they'll ignore incoming fire. That means hitting their heads or hearts, usually. Look at some FBI material to see how much damage a fanatical human can sustain before dying or being incapacitated -- it's rather daunting. Certainly the sheer volume of fire directed at them would make the statistical likelyhood of getting a solid head hit high; but certainly not 100%. The chances of going fanatical is set, as is the hit chances; I doubt that soviet platoon leaders have better odds than any other leader in the game; but I could be wrong. In conclusion, I think they were lucky, and you were not. /SirReal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Fanaticism is only present in scenarios when the designer wishes so. It isn't in QB's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 You sure? I think fanaticism is in at all times but you can jack it up in scenario design. One big thing to remember is that what is on screen is not actually what is happening in the world of the program. The guys aren't where they are shown on the screen and the round impacts don't show exactly where rounds are hitting. How many times have we all seen large calibur HE land seemingly right on top of a unit and have no effect. Things like this do happen. During the battle of Berlin two guys with a machine gun held a bridge on the K'damm for nearly 48 hours from all comers. Now if it happens all the time it might be the problem. I think this time you were the ball rather than the bat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Take a look at the troops in the Grain Elevator in Stalingrad - or the Red House in the Red October complex. You didn't need to be in fortified complexes, either. Teenaged troops of the 25th SS Panzergrenadierregiment (part of Hitlerjugend Division) hid out in small slit trenches as well as an anti-tank ditch near Buron in July 1944; Allied troops bypassed them only to be brought under fire from their rear. Small arms were ineffective on the Germans and eventually tanks of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers had to come to point blank range and take out individual Germans with the 75mm main armament. It happens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 What no one seems to have mentioned yet is that this whole experience was primarily a result of double blind limited intel. The truth was, the Germans did not need to kill this unit. That the player wanted to is beside the point. What was weak about the HQ was its *firepower*. Not its "defense". It annoyed the player that it was up and firing. But they didn't *hit* a thing, until he sent someone to 50m. And 1 more in close assault. Even those results probably came from 1 SMG gunner alive, in all likelihood. If the German had simply remained 80m or so from this unit, he could have ignored it with impunity. Directing high firepower at a position pays only if there are a lot of men to hit with that firepower. The last man is the hardest to hit. But is also typically pointless to hit, because he is no threat to anybody. There is no bigger waste of ammo than firing for minutes on end with everybody and his brother at a lone rifleman survivor in cover at range. It could be argued that the infantry fp model is too forgiving to small units. It seems to put casualties on them as some percentage chance against the men in the unit, so smaller units take fewer absolute losses. The way you are supposed to adapt to this is by ignoring impotent tiny units. "Eliminationist", willful desire for overkill of the last man is extremely inefficient in fp expended and ammo terms. As for failing to suppress greens with tons of fp, it does sound like a case of the random fanaticism (which is always there - scenario settings just make it common). It could also have been a +2 morale leader, but that only gets you to vet morale in foxhole cover, and this sounds like more than that. As for the idea that no one could withstand so much fp, um, it probably took on the order of 10k to 100k bullets fired to cause 1 casualty with MGs and small arms. That's the conclusion if you look at the bullets fired in the whole war and the number of men actually hurt - most of them by bigger shells, only a quarter or so by bullets. (This didn't matter all that much because ammo wasn't scarce - occasions when exposed enemies were close enough to shoot were). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Unfortunately, ammo IS scarce in CMBB and so I agree with your doctrine on avoiding these small teams. Of course, this 3-man team could also be covering a jump-off point or an entire lane where infantry need to cross. How then do you deal with this problem when there are no support teams around and you need to advance squads of infantry? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 OK, I can see this is going nowhere fast. HMG fire suppresses people. So does concentrated rifle fire. Why didn't these green HQ troops go to ground? If they were fanatic, how was it that none were hit by this gigantic volume of fire, all directed at one tiny spot on the map? Because some aspect relating to platoon HQs is flawed. Something funky is going on with them. JasonC : I wouldn't have assaulted them if I didn't have to. Those 3 supermen somehow weren't suppressed by the huge volume of firepower directed at them, from close range. Why didn't those green troops break and rout when under such intense pressure? If they were fanatic and firing back anyway, nicely exposed to my fire, how is it that none of them were hit during this whole time, and I had to physically close with them in order to get rid of them? If HMGs and concentrated rifle fire from close range can't suppress 3 man platoon HQs, or a single squad of infantry in CM, we should start including hover tanks and neutrino cannons. After all, from the way this QB was playing, and as I stated earlier... all the Soviets needed was a massive wave of platoon HQs, and they could have conquered the world. Forget the T-34s and SMG squads, we gotta bring up the dreaded platoon HQs! They can't be suppressed, wounded, or killed, and they always fight to the last man. [ August 31, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Sgt. Beavis ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Take a look at the troops in the Grain Elevator in Stalingrad - or the Red House in the Red October complex. You didn't need to be in fortified complexes, either. Teenaged troops of the 25th SS Panzergrenadierregiment (part of Hitlerjugend Division) hid out in small slit trenches as well as an anti-tank ditch near Buron in July 1944; Allied troops bypassed them only to be brought under fire from their rear. Small arms were ineffective on the Germans and eventually tanks of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers had to come to point blank range and take out individual Germans with the 75mm main armament. It happens. And in any of these incidents, were there 3 guys, all by themselves? These guys weren't in trenches either, just shallow foxholes. Fanaticism happens...once in a while. In CM, platoon HQs quite regularly refuse to go to ground or be killed. I'm not imagining things when I say this, because I see it happen in the games I play. Another person has said they experienced the same thing. He also said that when he tried to post about it, a bunch of people would come into his threads and try to make excuses for crazy behavior... blah. How many threads and how many hundreds of posts were needed on these forums to correct the obviously flawed MG problems in CMBO? And even with that issue, there were tons of people who said something to the effect of "sure, it's quite realistic for a company of infantry to charge an MG bunker over open ground and take 3 casualties!" Makes me wonder why the British and Germans weren't so much more successful withh their WW1 attacks over no-mans' land. After all, MGs don't really cause casualties.... Anyway, I don't think it's realistic for 3 guys, by themselves, to not go to ground when facing such firepower. And if they don't, well, they'll be killed by remaining exposed. Ideally I could ignore them. But I needed the section of the map they were in. Before assaulting them, i put down what one would think to be an adequate, even very excessive, amount of supporting fire. Naturally, they didn't seem to be affected by this, being a platoon HQ, and required a mass assault to be destroyed after repulsing an earlier attempt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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