Three_Oh_Eight Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 From the latest Shotgun News, July 20, 2003, p 4: “Like many instruments designed to wage war, the Edenic home of night vision weapon’s sights is to be found in Germany. One of Hitler’s “super weapons,” infrared night vision devices were deployed both on Panther tanks and as driving equipment on trucks. Of interest to us here is a request made in October of 1944 for the development of a small infrared telescopic sight for use on the new 7.92x33mm Kurz Sturmgewehr 44. Such a device was desired to help protect armored units against nighttime attack by infantry tank-killer parties. Within five months a working model, the Zielgerat 1229, was developed and successfully passed testing. Aptly code named the Vampir, it allowed the gunner to detect and engage targets in total darkness by means of electronic detection of invisible infrared radiation. With the fielding of Vampir units by the Panzergrenadiers, a new chapter of technology, and warfare, was begun.” Anyone know anything of this? The article isn’t footnoted, so I don’t know the source. Any credibility to it, or is it another Super Weapon of the Third Reich fantasy? ------------------ (After a bit of looking on the www…) ------------------ Ahhh, the web. Ya gotta love it. From Night Fighting Panthers: “Starting in September 1944, a limited number of Panthers were to be outfitted with an infrared searchlight and scope mounted on the commander's cupola. The 200 watt screened light, in combination with the infrared receiver/gun sight, had a range of up to 600 meters in clear weather at night. A steel band connected the infrared sight to an internal control for gun elevation.” The site above looks great; lots more text than my little snippet, footnoted (mostly German language sources by the look of it), with some cool pics. So, this original quest for info has turned into a post of info. Enjoy. Any chance we’ll see infrared modelled in the next CM patch/release? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 So, this original quest for info has turned into a post of info. Enjoy. Any chance we’ll see infrared modelled in the next CM patch/release? Saddly no, I think the main reason was that because of "Borg Spotting" a night vision capable tank would make any night fight way to unfair. "Hey you! Yeah you, the MG42 HMG that is over 1/2 a mile from my position. There a SMG squad sneaking up behind you!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 http://www.achtungpanzer.com/ir.htm MikeT 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Originally posted by Nippy: So, this original quest for info has turned into a post of info. Enjoy. Any chance we’ll see infrared modelled in the next CM patch/release? Saddly no, I think the main reason was that because of "Borg Spotting" a night vision capable tank would make any night fight way to unfair.i'm not so sure the germans weren't borg. they certainly seemed to fight as one. perhaps the reason their fighting efficiency declined during the war was because the green recruits didn't have time to be assimilated.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Yep, this is where it started. The technology actually was developed in Holland I believe. This is what is called today "Generation zero", and it required strong infrared illumination to work at decent ranges. Part of the problem with the Vampir was its size, its weight, and the short battery life. Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 First heard of these Panthers in SP3 (maybe a mod), SPWaW or SPWW2. It was fun to include them in your battles. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polish Bruce Lee Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 ill post a pic of what it looks like, but i have to figure it out first, plus im at work so hold on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman2000 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Stephen Hunter included a night vision sniper's scope in one of his WWII novels -- device was called "Vampir." I thought it was total quasi sci-fi. Who'd thunk it? They really had something like that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman2000 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Throw it under support -- +4000% rarity 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Originally posted by mattman2000: Stephen Hunter included a night vision sniper's scope in one of his WWII novels -- device was called "Vampir." I thought it was total quasi sci-fi. Who'd thunk it? They really had something like that. "The Master Sniper" (actually I got it as a present from Steve ). Except for the name of the device, though, there isn't much based on reality in that book. It's described there as if it was a thermal imager (humans stand out against the background), but it's not. Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three_Oh_Eight Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 Most interesting to me is the reference to research beginning in the early 30s, and the military turning it down in the late 30s! I mean, of course, what advantage would being able to see in the dark give in battle? Maybe it’s the arrogance of hindsight, maybe it’s being a programmer for so many years, or maybe it’s a cultural difference, but I could never understand the conservatism of the military mind. At the most basic level ‘New Gadgets = Cool Stuff’ - who would turn down a new gadget without at least trying it out? Much less a new gadget that gives a real world advantage... like, say, being able to see in the dark. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Well, for starters, things never work out as well in the field as they do in the laboratory. And the military commanders are the ones whose MEN are killed when the new gadget doesn't really work, but you were relying on it anyway... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman2000 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Maybe the thought was that the next generation of ubermensch would be able to see in the dark without having to fall back on sissy night vision gear. It would come with the whole blue hair and blonde eye bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman2000 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Did I actually type blue hair and blonde eyes? rolleyes: I get stupider by the minute 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polish Bruce Lee Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 ah screw it, i have no idea how to post screen shots, if anyone wants it, just post it and ill e-mail it to you, then maybe you can post it [ July 21, 2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: commi18 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Hey Matt..mb they were part of a special TOP SECRET unit called the "Blue Rinse Brigade" BTW...there were also a number of Marder IIs fitted with experimental night vision devices afaik...and there was some talk of a Jagdpanther or two being similarly equipped. regards Måkjager 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Originally posted by Three_Oh_Eight: Most interesting to me is the reference to research beginning in the early 30s, and the military turning it down in the late 30s! I mean, of course, what advantage would being able to see in the dark give in battle? Maybe it’s the arrogance of hindsight, maybe it’s being a programmer for so many years, or maybe it’s a cultural difference, but I could never understand the conservatism of the military mind. At the most basic level ‘New Gadgets = Cool Stuff’ - who would turn down a new gadget without at least trying it out? Much less a new gadget that gives a real world advantage... like, say, being able to see in the dark. The Vampire never made it through the prototype phase from what I know. In a way, the military was right back then - the technology in no way was advanced enough to lead to any meaningful use in the fieldfor decades. This includes the night vision side of things (light sensitivity, amplification and resolution) but also the electronics and power supply issues. It took well into the 60s/70s before the first night vision devices that were of any use actually started popping up, and it took until the 80s before the advantage they offered started becoming signficant enough. As for vehicle mounted night vision, that took a different path (becoming more useful quicker), since the restrictions of weight and size aren't as limiting. Thermal vision is state of the art right now, but up to today portable thermal vision is so-so facing much of the same problems that infrared image intensifiers faced back in the mid-40s. Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emar Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Thomas Jentz's Panther book has several pictures of the device mounted on the commanders cupola of a captured Panther. I can scan the page but I don't know how to host it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Originally posted by Moon: Thermal vision is state of the art right now, but up to today portable thermal vision is so-so facing much of the same problems that infrared image intensifiers faced back in the mid-40s.That is an understatement. The current TVS for the M16 is about the size of an old (early 90s) camcorder. It has a nice image but is so unwieldy that it is next to useless when manuevering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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