I really need help with this one

[ciphrix]

Hey, noob here, I'm really more fps fan, but this game is just too good to put down, even if it makes me crap myself when my lines are overrun by the enemy.

So this is gonna probably be a dumb question.

How do u hold ur boys together against a massed german tank assult with supporting infantry?

Like the one in Blizcrieg (can't spell) in CMBB playing the allies.

All I really got thats anti tank are a few AT guns (say 3-4, and 3 of them will be light ones, so its like pee shooting at a truck), russian AT rifles (which I think is quite useless), mortar firing those fire things (I like to use technical terms as u can see) and thats really it if u don't count normal infantry in CQB with nades etc

Everytime I am first assulted with a mass German Infantry rush with tank support, and my men start running before the first 30 second mark, even with a HQ in command and fully dug in. Then the enemy infantry protects the flanks and the german tanks start rolling, my AT teams don't stand a chance, I might manage to take out 3-5 (if I'm lucky) of their tanks and all my AT teams will be dead.....

I mean, there got like 30 tanks rolling together towards your lines, and usually once ur position has been discovered, you have no less then 3 tanks pounding at u plus the enemy infantry.

Also, at what range will a unbuttoned up tank be able to see your men in fox holes in the woods? Like a rough range.

So yeah, there is probably some real simple solution, but for now, I'm no more then target practice for the germans.

[ciphrix]

I mean who can really blame those poor sods for retreating? Your just in your tight little fox hole, drinking some vodka and minding your own business when suddenly 30 big bad arse mean looking german tanks roll out of no where and start depositing 10000 tons of TNT (the figure may be a tid high) around you, the worest part u got nothing that will even slow it down, oh sure some of your commie buddies are mortering it with fire things and shooting at it, and u may get lucky with like 3 kills, WOW, THERE IS ONLY ANOTHER 27 LEFT!

Hell, I'd run as well

[Bonxa]

Sound like a tough scenario. I haven't played it myself so I don't know the lay of the land but the placement of your troops is crucial when dealing with a heavy attack. Try to find reverse slope positions for your infantry. There the krauts can't pound you as well with their tanks and their infantry will have to come real close before yhey can spot you. The AT guns should be kept a little to the sides and then given coverd arcs so that they only fire up close and personal flankingshots. In general keep your men hidden as long as possible and try to take on the enemy only piecemeal. Your Maxim MG's can open up a little earliere though in an attempt to stall the enemys infantry. Same goes for the AT rifles. Hope you can make some sense out of this.

Good luck!

[ciphrix]

Yeah, thanks mate, except I've already tried that, the big problem with a big attack force is not really the total number of tanks, if the jerries sent one tank at me at a time, the war would be over tomorrow, except they come as ONE BIG MASS, so no matter how well I hide my AT guns or teams, after the first few shots, there will be literally be 2-5 tanks per AT team, and thats not good odds considering the toughness of german tanks. And ofcourse its silly to mass ALL my AT assets on one approach, as I don't have trucks to rapidly redeploy them if my guess was wrong.

I've tried setting up a kill zone with pretty much all my AT assets shooting at this one area from nearly all angles (even had a platoon baiting the tanks in), although I may of inflicted moderate damage (ie 9 tanks down), my AT force was pretty much non existent afterwards and the rest of his force just rolled around the map and fertilised the ground with my remaining men.

Also, using my MGs to supress the incoming infantry is also kinda suicide, once the firing starts, then pretty much all the tanks stop and start firing. I've found that really the only way to deal with the infantry is camp in the middle of woods (where the tanks can't hurt u...much), wait till they enter and ambush them.

But thanks for ur input

[landser]

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If this is the operation Blitzkrieg, keep in mind you have several battles, and plenty of map behind you (that's not visible in the first battle). So you have room and time for defense in depth. No need to stand up to the onslaught. Try a layered defense, and let the enemy come to you. Hold out the best you can, you have some juicy reinforcements coming.

Use the forest as a screen and set up your AT guns to fire at any armor that makes it past this point. No need to engage them at 800 meters near their start positions. Use the heavy buildings in the town as strongpoints. Position some infantry deep in the woods to take care of the infiltrating enemy infantry while keeping your guys out of the sights of the oncoming armor. Keyhole your AT guns along the flanks. That large forest in front of the town forces the enemy armor to the sides of the map and if you can engage the armor here, your guns should perform better and survive longer.

A forward defense is not the best choice IMO, especially in that first battle. Try to conserve your force until help arrives. And it will

[ January 11, 2003, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: landser ]

[Krazy Canuck]

Hey guys,

A reminder, when discussing specific battles/operations start your topic with

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>Not everyone will have worked through 'em and would/could be pissed with the early hints.

It's polite.

KC

[YankeeDog]

If you are new to the game, there is alot of reading here on the tips and tricks forum about anti-armor tactics & c. Most of it was originally written for CMBO, but it's still pretty applicable to CMBB. I would suggest doing some searches and reading up on anti-armor tactics - there's lots to learn and fortunately lots of really good players have already written down some of their little secrets.

However, there is a limit to what you can expect to get out of AT Guns and IAT teams, even when you have the advantage of being on the defense and you know what you're doing. There are alot of factors that go into how effective you can realistically expect ATGs to be in a given scenario (visibility, terrain, luck, etc.). Generally speaking, though, when playing against a reasonably competent human opponent and assuming an 'even' (say, 45mm Russan ATG vs. PzIIIG) matchup, I consider 2 tanks/ATG to be the 'break even' point. In other words, if you are the defending player, and you take out 2 medium or heavy tanks (not light armor) with your AT Gun, you've made more or less an even exchange, with no advantage to either side. If you manage to get 3 or more tanks with your ATG before it gets taken out, then you're doing pretty well, and you should be able to pull out at least a minor victory if you can keep the 3:1 Tank/Gun exchange ratio up. If you get 4 or more tanks for one ATG, you're doing very well, and are probably looking at a major victory if you can average an exchange ratio this high (assuming a balanced scenario, of course). Only very rarely do I 'win' the anti-armor battle but lose the overall defense. As the old Red Army saying goes, "Any defense is of necessity first a defense against tanks".

Obviously, there's a lot of qualifiers to this - I've seen a single ATG exceptionally good defensive terrain take out two whole platoons of tanks, and only be leave the fight after running out of ammo. Furthermore, once you get into 'imbalanced' AT vs. ATG matchups, the favorable exchange ratios change. I generally consider myself doing pretty well if I can trade one 45mm ATG for one Panther, and a two gun - one Panther exchange to be more or less even! OTOH, if I trade a German 88mm PaK for a couple of T-70s, I'm probably on the losing end of the exchange - this shows the importance of having light AT assets so you don't have to expose your big guns to take out light armor scouts.

I'm still figuring out what a 'favorable' exchange ratio is for ATRs - obviously, I've only been playing with them since CMBB came out. The effectiveness of ATRs changes considerably over the course of the war, and there is no 'upgrade' option with ATRs - there are just two Russian and one German types (well OK, one or two more types in the minor combatants' TOEs). As such, you can expect alot more from your ATRs in 1941 than you can in 1945. In 1941, ATRs can penetrate any German tank at moderate to long range from the flank or rear, and many early-war models are even vulnerable to frontal penetrations from ATRs at moderate to close range. As early as Fall 1942, though, you can run into the Tiger I, which is basically immune to ATR fire. You can have a whole battalion's worth of ATRs firing at a Tiger and the most you can hope for is a lucky immobilization or gun hit. The Panther is a bit more vulnerable to ATR fire than the Tiger, but it's still a very tough nut to crack with a 14.5mm round, even from nearly point-blank range.

Assuming you're talking about an ATR vs. Tank matchup where the ATR has a decent penetration 'envelope' (good chance of side or rear penetrations at at least moderate range, maybe a realistic chance of frontal penetration at close range - again, ATRs vs. a PzIIIG would be a good benchmark), thus far "break even" seems to be about 1 tank per 3 ATRs. I don't usually lose all three ATR teams for the tank - it's more like on average one ATR team will be dead, one will have one casualty be panicked or worse, and the third will be more or less OK, but is out of position for another kill.

What I'm being incredibly long-winded about saying is that if the force ratios are really as you say (30 tanks vs. 3-4 ATGs & some ATRs), then this sounds like an uneven fight from the start to me. Unless there's an exceptional circumstance such as very good defensive terrain, or an attacker with very little infantry support, or a really uneven unit matchup like 45mm ATGs & ATRs vs. PzI & R-35s, the best I would expect to pull off under these circumstances is a good fighting withdrawal, or maybe a Thermopalye-like last stand where my forces are more or less eliminated by the end of the game, but I've caused a lot more damage than I took.

Let's assume that you have 4 ATGs, and a whole battalion's worth of ATRs (about 16 ATR teams). Even if you manage to take out 4 tanks/ATG (16) , and one tank/every 2 ATR teams (8), that still leaves your opponent with 6 tanks to run roughshod over your infantry. Maybe you can get a couple more tanks by infantry close assault (much more difficult with Russian infantry due to their lack of any AT special better than a molotov), leaving your opponent with 4 tanks.

If you managed the exchange ratios above, you'd be either extremely lucky or one of the best CM players around (or just playing against a really bad opponent ), and you'd probably win the overall game. The loss of 26 tanks is probably going to put your opponent at an incredible disadvantage in terms of casualty ratio, so he's going to need to control every VL on the map to have any chance of a victory. If you achieve this kind of victory though, you should definitely be the one writing the "Tips & Tricks" answers, and not asking the questions.

I'm not familiar with the scenario you are playing, so maybe there's an exceptional circumstance that balances things. Most scenarios are designed to be fairly balanced, and there could be something in the design, such as reinforcing wave of tanks arriving for the defense, that would balance the scenario. Some scenarios are not designed to be balanced, though. Sometimes they are intended to accurately depict an actual historical engagement that was not 'balanced' (as the majority were not), or sometimes the designer just has a sadistic streak . It is possible you are fighting a battle that is not designed to be winnable.

Anyway, I just thought I'd give you my opinion of what you should be able to get out of your AT defenses assuming good tactics and average luck.

Oh, one final note: It is generally considered good ettiquitte on the forum to put the words "SPOILER ALERT" followed by several blank lines at the top of any post that contains specific information about a scenario. This way, players who haven't played the scenario yet can avoid reading the post if they don't want to spoil any surprises.

Cheers,

YD

EDIT: Ahh, this is an operation. That changes things. As noted, when defending against an advance or assault, pick your fights - you don't need to stop him all at once. At least initially, your goal is usually to slow down and attrit his forces.

[ January 11, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: YankeeDog ]

[Fionn]

5 Saved game files have been sent to you. Each shows the beginning state of the 5 battles of the operation.

Note that my forces were not pushed back from their start lines and actually managed to counter-attack on the 3rd battle. IOW it is eminently possible to destroy the German tanks and infantry ( also note that several of my ampulomets, AT Rifles and 45mm ATGs got multiple German AFV kills). You just need to handle them with a bit of care.

As I stated in the email I am sending this since you are a newbie and deserve some help. You are not, under any circumstances, to share these files with any member of this ****ed forum.

Hope you find the files useful

[ciphrix]

hey thanks guys, I replayed the Operation and...well....maybe I sorta killed a few more tanks.

I've readjusted my defense to a fighting retreat, and hit and run (I really do mean RUN.) And I've made past the second battle with pretty much my force intact, well as much as one can hope against a onsaulght of German Tanks.

One more thing thou, AT Rifles I can see how I can hide it better, then have it shoot and relocate further down the line for another few shots at the tanks, however with the ampulomets, they gotta have LOS to shot (unlike mortar), and that means after a few shots the tanks (like 3) will see you and the ampulomets (due to heavy equipment) can't keep up with the retreat. Hell I lost most of them in my first retreat. Any pointers here? And I don't have any trucks nearby btw.

But really, thanks for all the detailed feedback, helped me out alot...I think

[Fionn]

You should be able to stop them cold... Remember this is only against the AI...

Against a human opponent conducting a fighting withdrawal requires a LOT more skill than it does to simply stand one's ground. IOW don't get suckered into a sub-optimal course of action ( fighting withdrawal) simply because your main battle skills aren't up to par yet. What you need to do is stand and fight and then analyse why you failed. Setup again eradicating those mistakes and fight again, identify new mistakes and eliminate them. Eventually you will have a pretty good defence and by taking in the inter-relationship of the various arms ( how to weave HMGs, ATRs and ATGs into a defenec) you will improve your main battle skills (and won't have to be conducting fighting retreats ( a VERY tough thing to do against an even half-way decent human opponent).

Of course it is your choice but all you are doing here is taking the easy way out and sacrifing your long-term skill level for short term ease.

[JasonC]

Landser's advice is on target. That operation isn't too tough against the AI, because it isn't nearly aggressive enough. In my first outing of the first battle, I lost only 10 men from two MG teams.

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You have tons of good infantry, well led. You should "own" the interiors of the forests. Stay away from the front edges of them. Keep to the middle and back sides, and put tons of infantry in them. Also use the buildings that are behind woods areas.

There are important ridge line effects on the map, too. The "crown" of a low hill-ridge runs diagonally through the axis - largest center woods - church. LOS lines are limited in that area, even where the ground is open, because of the "hump" of the ground. Make that area your "blocking position".

Then expect him to come to you. Don't open fire with your main body. (Some harassing fire is fine, more on that later). His infantry can come straight into the first woods, but his tanks cannot support them there without coming around on your right - where they have the option of a "wide" or a "shallow" hook, effectively - or the left.

On the left there is a prominent crest just to your left of the big front woods. To come around that way, his tanks need to come over that ridge. It blocks all longer LOS lines to the original wide open field area. He can't crest that ridgeline with enough tanks at once to defeat your available AT.

There are plenty of good positions behind that ridge. If his tanks come over and face the front woods, they will present their sides to several positions on your left side. One infantry platoon can shield your ATGs from probing infantry, hiding otherwise. A few MG teams can cross-fire the open areas between this "flank security" platoon and the main "block" in the woods. Basically, you make the left ridge area a "tank trap", and put just enough anti-infantry power off on that side to allow it to be sprung.

Your 45mm ATGs and especially the ATRs are most effective with flank shots, against the Pz IIIs. The ATRs at better in close, too. Your 76mm ATGs are your most powerful AT asset, and can kill anything they hit at any range. Give the 76mm's a good commander, and make sure all ATG pairs are commanded. You have a couple weapons-only HQs with good "?" that will help guns avoid early detection - those are fine for the 45s.

Know what you can afford to lose, too - you will get 1 more 76 and 2 more 45 ATGs for the second battle. So, a pair of the 45s get the "wider out" portion of the trap, while the 76s get the "frontal" one, farther back toward your own map edge. If you place them right, one can still see up to diagonal road to the right of the big woods, too.

That covers the left side. Off on the "wide right", do something similar, but with less focus. This is for the area to your right of the diagonal road, if he tries to get to the church area with a "long L" around your right flank. (The AI usually won't think of that, incidentally, but we are building a solid defense). Meaning, a flank security platoon, crossing MGs, and a pair of 45 ATGs looking forward and inward from the right.

The LOS lines in that area aren't quite as nice as on your left. If he comes all the way around your right, he may approach this pair of 45s frontally - just hold fire until they are close if that happens. Stay far enough back that there are no LOS lines out to the big center open areas, though - conceed that field to his tanks (for early battles, I mean).

That leaves a shallow hook around your right as the "main road" into your position. It is his other option - down the diagonal road, or just to your left of it, right behind the rightward edge of that big body of woods. This needs to be your the infantry block's "anti-tank" area.

You should own the big woods, at least their back sides. The terrain is quite "tight" for tanks, with LOS lines limited. Position all your ampulets in this area, looking onto the fields behind the first few bodies of woods, and the approach lanes in. ATRs likewise, especially the high quality ones (you have one crack and one vet). Pay attention to which infantry platoons have lots of molotovs and good leaders - you have some vets, some squads with 3 molotovs, many +2 combat or +2 morale leaders.

Inside the woods, use your SMG platoon as a "welcoming committee" inside the tree line of the main body of woods. Put a full company in their with them. Yes, Virginia, you want 200 guys in those woods alone, none of them at the forward tree line, tons of SMGs among them and foxholes everywhere. Then try to put your FOs in places where they can see the potential entry areas - or the first bits of woods German infantry might seize to the right, between the big woods and the diagonal road.

Another company takes the next big body of woods to the right rear, plus the church. You should have two more from the other company (recon and one platoon on the wings as flank security). Put them between these two, both along the diagonal road. One in the buildings behind the big woods, especially the 2 heavy buildings in that area, the other to their right front, at the "entrance" between the two woods-position companies.

Take your remaining regular and vet quality MG teams, and cover all the open ground areas between these blocks with side-facing criss-crosses. That means roughly half in the same areas as the infantry, incidentally - to give reach to the sides and tie places together.

You have one conscript and 2 green MG teams. Position them to see the wide open field ahead of the block, so you can see what is coming (yikes!), brush back dismounted scouts and force tanks to lead (the AI will anyway), and in the end brush passengers off tanks before they reach your positions. These guy's life expectancy is not high. But they will get a few shots off, and if they hide again immediately may escape detection. They will also provide intel early on.

The name of the game after all of that is "don't let him move the infantry". He can shoot up your long range assets. He can run tanks here and there. He can get infantry -to- your positions - but not -through- them. Make him dig you out of those woods and the buildings along their backsides, with grenades and shovels. Have a flame party on his tanks that nose in too close trying to help.

When a tank gets LOS to a spotted regular infantry unit, "skulk" the infantry deeper into the woods or out the backside of the building, breaking LOS again. That will make the tank move again and draw it closer - past somebody hiding, you hope. He's only got 15+ turns per battle. If you don't lose too much in the first, you get another full company of infantry for the second, and you will hold the woods interiors as strongly as ever.

Your own tanks start showing up, too. Don't "blow" all the ones that arrive in the second battle. They will be far more effective if you wait for the 3rd. If you want mobile ATGs to "blow", use the BA-10s not the better BTs. Use them on the flanks of the blocking positions, like the 45 ATG pairs, but hunting around trees or up a rise to shoot up a few of the most forward German tanks, then skeddale ASAP.

You should be able to make it through the first two battles with this advice. Keep your BTs alive in the second fight, and if possible the 76 ATGs. With the infantry, just make him pay with the blood of his own infantry. However much he wants to "exchange off" in woods-interior fighting, it will be fine. Just don't let him nuke lots of it with his tanks, unanswered. If you meet these goals, the third and fourth battles will be a Russian "coming out" party.

I hope this helps, and good luck.

[ciphrix]

Yeah, thanks guys, although I don't think I'm quite beating this operation yet, but I'm improving heaps. And I've been using the id mistake/fix mistake/id new mistake approach and trying to stand my ground, however I still have some questions.

For one, the 45mm ATGs, at what range would I open them up? It seems that at 200 range vs Frontal armour of medium and light tanks, they still a bit...well, they shells keep breaking up and even if they do manage to penetrate, there is no visible damage. I've read teh info on them and has also tried to engage from the side, however thats not always possible, so if I HAD to engage from the front, when should I open up?

Also the ATRs, I know I have to get close, but what tactics should I use and range? I've hid them on teh flanks of the advancing tanks, then open up and then run (hit and run), well, 2 shots from a ATR isn't exactly gonna do much, however if I stay and keep shooting, then the tanks pound them do death. And if I do use him like a sniper (ie hit and relocate), his big gun don't make him the fastest unit and usually when he moves, he gives up his location and bye bye mr ATR. And also what range from teh side is considered a good range, I know the stats, but I'd like to know how pros use them. This also apply to the mortar dudes firing fire bombs, I tried to use a HQ as spotter but it didn't work...

Also, is there anyway to defend against the "start of battle shelling?" I usually have half to 1/3 of my guns knocked out by the shelling, I tried putting them back and having trucks pull them foward once the shelling stops, but its usually too late and the tank is too close and take them out before they can setup properly.

Thanks for all the feedback, its being real useful.

[Shifty 101]

For ATR's I personally place them on suspected avenues of approach and have them open up as soon as the enemy is spotted (They have 70 Tungsten (SP?) so they can shoot constantly for a lot of turns) and have them plinkl away at the tanks, buuttoning them. After the tanks get within about 50m I have the ATR's hide w/ a short cover arc (4 meters or so) so they don't give away thier position and wait for the tanks to pass by, giving them rear shots. I'm sure there are better ways to use em but I'm just throwing up an idea.

[JasonC]

The Russian 45mm isn't great against medium tanks. From the side and under 500 yards is the best shot. From the front you want more like 100 yards, if the target is a Pz III or IV. Pz IIs and armored cars, they can handle at greater range. Yes, you sometimes need several penetrations. The others often cause gun damage or shock and a crew casualty.

76s from the front, 45s from the side, is the right way to set up a kill sack. If you have to use 45s from the front, wait for close range. Once you have tanks and ACs with 45s, you can get some flanks by using pairs that can see the same location from two different angles - whichever way each tank faces, someone will get a flank shot. With ATGs, you can't move to create the right angles, so you have to make up for it by holding fire until they are close.

As for the ATRs, fire from the side at 300 yards or less. Under 100 yards, the penetration chance is best, but so is detection. I generally fire one turn, or set a covered arc I expect a tank will enter midway through on turn - and then hide the next turn. If they have located the ATR, they will shoot at it and he will come off "hide" and fire back, if he isn't dead or pinned. If they haven't spotted him, he lives to try again. I don't run voluntarily, but if they panick they run on their own. It does help to position them not right at the edge of woods, though. That way the distance to broken LOS is shorter.

As for the ampulets, the only useful trick I've found is to have lots able to fire on the same location. They get hits easily enough, but they often have no appreciable effect even when they hit. So you really need to go to town on a target (meaning, lots firing repeatedly at it) to get kills. You life expectancy is short unless you kill the thing, especially with just one.

As for avoiding prep bombardment, the only thing you can do is not bunch up your most valuable items, and against humans particularly to avoid the most obvious spots. In this operation, you have so much infantry he is going to hit something if he dumps arty anywhere with lots of cover. As long as he pays plenty of shells and gets mostly ordinary infantry, you just take your lumps. If he lucks into a gun kill or two, likewise. If he is getting more than that, you are probably putting them too close together.

Trying to move the guns up and unlimber under fire is a bad idea. Just doesn't work in combat time, once the shells are actually flying. Limbering to run can sometimes work, if you killed everything in sight, or if you put down smoke between target and gun. But it is rare to pull that sort of thing off successfully.

Fine questions, by the way.