Playing as early war Russians

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi

I am having a look at early war scenarios and wondered if anyone had any tips on using early war tanks, infantry, etc.

thanks

[The_Enigma]

Heres a tip for your tanks at least.

When possible attempt to keep them unbuttoned.

Since the majoirty of the tanks have no radios they need to be unbuttoned to issues orders and start moving quickly.

If there buttoned up it takes them a hell of a lot longer i.e. from under 20 seconds to over a minute and a half.

Someone mentioned that the Soviets use to use flags to issue orders from there tanks and this is what the delay is representing, as well as the lack of radios to commuicate.

[Dook]

Plan even further ahead than usual.

Using the Soviets always requires more planning than the Germans, largely because of the limited availability of reactive artillery. The command delays for early-war Soviets and the additional delays imposed when a radio-less tank buttons up (as described by the Enigma above) require you to plan even farther ahead. Conscript troops may not start moving until 40-odd seconds into a turn, so you need to think about what you want them to do in the next turn as well.

Two related tactical points:

- Tanks that finish a turn buttoned up don't get the advantage of unbuttoned operation in the next turn even if you unbutton them during the orders phase. As a result, if you drive your tanks through rifle fire that is likely to cause the tank commanders to button up, be prepared for long order delays next turn.

- To limit delays, you might want to cut down on the number of waypoints you designate.

Use your numerical advantage.

In most realistic pre-made scenarios, you are likely to be stuck with a lot of inexperienced troops. If the scenario is balanced, you should have a significant numerical advantage. Use it.

Adjust your metrics.

This suggestions follows from the two above. I've found that you have to think differently when using early-war Soviets because of the long delays and generally inexperienced troops. I tend to simply my overall plans, do less micromanagement, expand my time horizon, and accept heavier casualties.

For example, I'm playing a scenario PBEM at the moment in which I have roughly 3 platoons of BT-7s against an unknown number (probably a platoon) of StuGs. I will likely try to kill the StuGs using hail-fire tactics. To do that most effectively, I probably will try to wait until all of my BT-7s arrive (2/3 are reinforcements) to give me more numbers. In the meantime, my infantry is likely to suffer. I also fully expect to lose nearly all of the BT-7s.

Hope this helps.

[dickesKind]

Hello!

What do I have to understand under "hail-fire" tactics?

Greetings...

[The_Enigma]

An example, a friend of mine had a bunch of Valentines shoot at a Panther which was mine.

They stood no chance of killing my tank but the 5 of them firing non stop at my Panther, killed the commander, knocked the gun out, paniced the crew and forced the crew to bail out.

Thus he hail fired the tank to death

[jBrereton]

Originally posted by dickesKind:

Hello!

What do I have to understand under "hail-fire" tactics?

Greetings...

ununterbrochenes Feuer (urmm is that right?) = hail-fire.

If you hit a vehicle with lots of shells / bullets, even if they can't damage the vehicle, it scares the crew, and sometimes they abandon the vehicle anyway.

[Guest Mike]

Early war Sov tanks have a medium velocity gun (45mm) and eggshell armour - they are fine against infantry (can be penetrated by ATR's but not often killed) but are horribly vulnerable in a stand-up fight with German armour - they CAN kill it at reasonable ranges, but are much more likely to get themselves killed.

So you need to mass them and give tehm limited firing arcs if you're goign to fight an armour war.

[Cuirassier]

Good ideas posted here already. I will also emphasize the importance of hail fire as a tactic for early war Soviet mech forces. The horrible time delays make coordination difficult, so maneuvers dependent on the intricate coordination of your arms should be avoided (eg diversions and flanking)

Now, I'm not saying they are unworkable, its just that such maneuver oriented tactics are much harder with radioless, buttoned tanks, with no cupolas, and often with low quality crews.

So plan ahead, make sure your plan is simple and workable, and make maximum use of your depth and mass on the attack.

[The_Enigma]

You may also want to stay away from machine guns ... ive lost early Soviet tanks to MG34 fire! :eek:

haha

[JasonC]

Early war tanks can mean many things.

The Russians win the early armor war with KV1s, T34s, and towed full power 76mm guns (USV for example). If instead all you have is BTs, T26s, and towed 45mm guns or worse, then winning the armor war is very hard. Especially when the Germans have the typical cherry picked types you can expect, which all have 50mm fronts or better.

The "45mm proof" types to watch out for are StuGs, Pz III J and later, Pz IVF, and the E and G models of Panzer 38s. The Pz IIIH is a marginal case - the hull it "45mm proof" but the turret is not. All of these types can be killed by 45mm with flank shots from within about 500 yards, but the side angle can't be poor.

In contrast, full 76mm guns kill every early war German AFV with ease and at range, any aspect. IIIH hulls at over 1000m start to bounce, but that is rare and the turret is still vulnerable.

So the first moral is to kill German full AFVs using long 76s and not 45s. 45s are for light armor at most. (No, this isn't realistic, the Russian 45mm is undermodeled with insanely crappy ammo in 1941 - but you just have to deal with it and adjust the weapons actually used).

45mm main armament vehicles are best used against pure infantry - they are thin themselves and entirely vulnerable. You don't even want to duel Pz IIs with them.

As for the strong types, the KV1 is a monster. Go for the type with a full 76L42 gun - earlier types with 76L3x exist which are considerably less accurate etc.

In the case of T34s, there are very early types with wimpy guns, and also the earliest full gun type still have a 45mm turret. This is quite vulnerable e.g. to German 50L42 and Czech 37mm. The better type, sooner available, has a 52mm turret. By early 1942 the turrets get much thicker - 65mm or more - and the main earlier weakness of the T34 finally disappears. It is always, always worth paying more for the thicker turret. The next big improvement is a radio, but that doesn't come until late 1942.

In late 1941 and early 1942, the wartime lights appear. The T60 is only useful against infantry as a moving MG nest. The gun is only adequate against halftracks, and the armor isn't useful against any German weapon. You are about as well off with the 1941 tankettes, particularly the M2 variant with 50 cal MG armament.

The T70 is significantly better than this. It is still mostly a moving MG nest and has all the limitations of 45mm main armament. The ammo improves in 1942, though. Also the front armor is decent against 1941 era German weapons - though hopeless against 50L60s and upward.

Of the prewar lights, the best is are the BT series but they are all bad. Very vulnerable, slow to react, underarmed etc. Kill enemy armor with bigger stuff or with guns, and bring them out late - that is the way to get the most mileage of them. Like the Germans would use halftracks.

As for infantry, the best early guys are the brigade types, "B". Look for types with an LMG in every squad and at least 2 SMGs each. Recon A is also great when it appears. The airborne is also good, with enough semi auto rifles to fight well at all ranges. Avoid the plain types with many L squad types, and the underarmed Recon C. Pioneer is also underarmed for infantry fighting, but useful for their demo charges.

The best gamey weapon in the early war Russian toolbag is the ampulet. They are about as powerful as bazookas, in an era in which German armor is poor. They can readily kill anything crawling within about 200m of your infantry. Penetration is about 50mm. Avoid shots at maximum range, the hit change falls sharply as the range rises from 200m to 250m.

Avoid the following weak guns - 25mm AA, 37mm ATG, 45mm ATG. The infantry guns are poor but OK HE chuckers. A better buy is the Mountain gun 76mm, which gets HE performance like the infantry guns and better AP performance at 500m and 30 degree angle than the 45mm ATG, all for 30 points with rariety off. The 37mm AA is also an excellent buy.

The long 76mm guns are great in this era (USV e.g.) The ZIS-3 is better once it arrives - easier to tow and faster to push into position and set up etc. Until the Germans get 80mm fronts later in 1942, the long 76s kill anything. They cost less than 50 points and are stealthy. Take them to win the armor war if KV or T34s are not available, rather than flocks of T26s or BTs.

Artillery, the problem in this era is response time. Only the 82mm mortar FOs will be reactive and they are weak. Bigger stuff is powerful but you basically have to use it "map fire" planned on turn 1 - which isn't available in meeting engagements. On map 82mm mortars are a great alternative, along with mountain guns for direct fire HE chucking.

I hope this helps.

[Vixen]

With the paper thin armor on many of the early Russian tanks/tankettes/armoured cars, you'll definitly want to pay even closer attention to terrain. If you can, stay out of LOS till right on top of any German armor you'll have a better shot at killing it. Use buildings, trees, gullies whatever. Lot of early war scenarios seem to have you on the defensive anyway so it makes it more practicle to hide your armor for ambushes. Avoid any kind of long range duel with your tin cans, you'll almost certainly loose.

[The_Enigma]

They cant be that bad, while playtesting a scenario the other week, T26s and BTs were able to make there mark on my Stugs, Mk IVs and IIIs. Leaving me with only a few runners by the end of the battle.

In a scenario i made, a bunch of BTs massacred a MK IV Platoon ... after they ate into the Pz 35 (t)'s.

I think you are all focusing too much on there negatives and the tin can talk is an example of it.

Ive found the 45mm ATG and the 45 in the tanks to be very useful agaisnt tanks and other AFV.

The Soviets ATR which start appearing in the first few months of the war can be a real annoyance.

Constant hits, TC kills, penetrations, being able to drive your tanks off or kill them etc.

As for infantry, split your squads when you near tanks so the guys without the molatovs can have a go at the tank with a good chance of killing it.

Thats a good tip for any Soviet player really

[civdiv]

Good thread on ampulomet use effectiveness in CM;

http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=39972&pid=213062#pid213062

[JasonC]

the engima - spoken like a true always-German player who expects poptops to slaughter but can't drive very well.

The Russians do not get ATRs early in the war, they come out in 1942. And they don't kill anything larger than a halftrack.

45mm guns are extremely undermodeled in CM. In reality they were comparable to 2 pdrs. Early versions could be defeated by 50mm plate but they would have readily penetrated all the 30mm sides on vanilla panzers. In CM, the early ammo is so undermodeled they have difficulty killing even from the side unless the side angle is well under 30 degrees.

A weapon that needs flat side shots under 500m, and then has 50-50 behind armor effect, is not an effective anti tank weapon. Not when taking the shot at all exposes a thin vehicle that will die with near certainty if the target lives through the first 2 shots.

It is pointless for Russian players to act like clay pigeons for German fanboys. It is pointless for them to take only T34/76s when Germans in 1943 take Tiger Is and in 1942 take StuGs with 80mm fronts and long 75s, and it is just as pointless for them to take all T26s and BTs against 50mm front short StuGs, Pz 38ts, and the better IIIs and IVs in 1941.

Germans cherry pick their vehicles as a matter of course and there is no reason whatever for Russians not to reply in kind. If you have a regular German opponent who never takes Tiger Is in 1943, prefering more historical Pz IVs, then you can pass on KV1s in 1941. Otherwise, KV the heck out of them. If you have a German opponent who fights 1942 battles in Pz III longs and Marders, but not long 80mm front StuGs, then by all means limit your use of T34s in 1941, but use them in 1942. Otherwise, T34 the heck out of them even in 1941.

And let them cry about it.

[The_Enigma]

Sorry Jason C but i play Soviets mostly when playing BB.

Currently over half the BB games i have going are with me as the Soviets.

PRTD and the PRTS Anti Tank Rifles are available to the Soviet player as of Sept '41, although it seems they should be available from the get go from litature i have read.

And they don't kill anything larger than a halftrack.

So can you explain why they holed my tanks the other day during a playtest of an early war scenario and inflicted some serious dammage.

Could you also point out why they were so effective at immoblising and distracting several Stugs in a mid war scenario so my 57mm guns could kill them?

spoken like a true always-German player who expects poptops to slaughter but can't drive very well.

But what is this supose to mean, because i can see the value of the 45mm ATG and the 45mm gun in most of the Soviet earlies, because i dont write them off that makes me a German fanboy?

I stated i made a scenario, intended to be played from the German P.O.V. because its based off a German generals memoir.

In said scenario, a bunch of BT tanks ate through my tank force of Pz 35 (t) and then followed them up with some Panzer IVs.

A scenario i playtested, which the designer said should be played as the German side, i had my Panzer IIIs and IVs, as well as Stugs shot up by a force made up mostly of BT and T26s.

So by showing that these guns and tanks are not as useless as people are pointing out, and highlighting you should not write them off as they can actually kill the German tanks they face ... that makes me German fanboy who just sits playing the German side all the time?

Btw is the little rant in those last two paragraphs aimed at me? :confused:

[MooCow456]

I always win as the SU in early battles

Just buy kv1 tanks with veteran or better crews and it is very hard to lose

The only way to lose would be if you are the attacker in rural area with extremely heavy woods

But in any other scenario it is easy to win especially if it is June /July 41 and you are the defender, the computer is a poor attacker

What I like to do is make a big circle with my Kv1 tanks and just massacre everything inside it, the trick is to push the enemy into a smaller and smaller circle

[The_Enigma]

You do realise that you will become a much better player if you use things that can actually be killed (without working extreming hard for the kill, as in having panzer IVs blast the KV to death with HE rounds).

I.e. using the T26 or BT7 tanks more often.

You may want to give the computer a CEB bounus of +3, you will find it plays quite a bit better then.

Finally i wouldnt be bragging how elite you are with your KV tanks

[MooCow456]

I always give the computer +3

And I would never use a t-26 or a BT tank, the only thing they are good for is exploding and hoping that the fire in the area somehow effects the other side

I would rather buy Guns.

And I am not bragging about anything, you can achieve similar results with tiger tanks in late 42 - 43

If you want a 100% early win in the war use kv tanks, it is as simple as that.

If you want a harder win then use guns, and if you want an extremely hard win then use t-26s and BT tanks and be the aggressor

[Vixen]

If you play human opponents you may find them never wanting to play quick battles if all you pick is super tanks with vet crews. Scenario may not give you the luxury of cherry picked units and you may be stuck with BTs and T26 and "heavies" with poor crews and low ammo.

[The_Enigma]

MooCow ... you have a lot to learn

[Der Alte Fritz]

Great tips everyone.

I will be firing up my BT-7s shortly. Any suggestions as to good scenarios to play.

cheers

[The_Enigma]

Sorry i dont know that many early war scenarios. The majoirty of my exp with these tanks has came from head to head battles via quick battles.

I slapped a bunch of them in a scenario i plonked on the Proving Grounds which i came up with the other day called The First Counterattack. Although it is meant to be played as the Germans.

In my tests those pesky BT tanks shot my Panzers to poo

[Dook]

The one I'm playing has a lot of BT-7s. It's Wittman's Iron Cross by Mark Gallear.

[MooCow456]

Originally posted by the_enigma:

MooCow ... you have a lot to learn

Unlikely, I have been playing this game for many years.

I know that it is better to have NOTHING then BT or t26 tanks because the only thing, the only thing they do is give points to the other side.

If there is a choice between guns and BT - T26 guns, it is an automatic choice of guns

And that it is better to have NOTHING then conscripts since they as well ONLY give points to the other side, that is all they do without any exception

[Vixen]

Just a guess, but I think Enigma was referring to learning about being a "good sport" and "how to win friends and influence people.