GaMaX Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Tactical AI gives toooo low priority to area targeting. I give my gun order to target some area and my faithful gunner start pounding that area. Good! Then, suddenly, enemy infantry unit pops up near current target and gunner changes his target and attacks that new unit ("No, no, forget about him, fire at that area, there are mortars there", I yell, but no one can hear me... :mad: ). Of course, infantry unit soon disappears in woods. And that's it! Shooting stops! Why didn't he continue to fire at that area? This matter of "forgetful gunners" is so drastic that I would call this a bug. Has anyone experienced similar problems? P.S. Sorry for my poor English. Marko 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 All the time. Look at it this way, if your commander told you to shoot at a patch of woods but then a enemy unit that you can actually see showed up, what would you shoot at? But it would be nice if they went back to pounding the woods afterwards. Oh, and you'll get to yell at him in just one minute... [ July 18, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Lars ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaMaX Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lars: All the time. But it would be nice if they went back to pounding the woods afterwards. Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Hopefully this will be fixed for CMAK (if not for CMBB). I’ve lost many guns this way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJaykey Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lars: Look at it this way, if your commander told you to shoot at a patch of woods but then a enemy unit that you can actually see showed up, what would you shoot at?.....If they are trained, disciplined soldiers, I would expect them to keep firing on the target I'd ordered them to. Unless the unit that popped up was an immediate threat to them, very close by, etc. [ July 18, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: SFJaykey ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 That's what they are coded to do in CMBB. But now you're going to start an argument over how great the threat should be to get them to switch targets which is rather subjective. Search in the CMBO forum and you'll find quite a few threads. CMBB is much better then CMBO in this regard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJaykey Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lars: That's what they are coded to do in CMBB. But now you're going to start an argument over how great the threat should be to get them to switch targets which is rather subjective.... If you were referring to my comment, yes: I know that's what happens in CMBB. And no, I don't mean to start any arguments. Though I do think units should return to their area fire order if the spotted enemy disappears. With 1-minute turns there is seldom a lot of game time lost before I can reissue the order, but it adds to micro-management. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaMaX Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by SFJaykey: With 1-minute turns there is seldom a lot of game time lost before I can reissue the order, but it adds to micro-management. One minute is more that enough time to knock out gun. You will probably not get another chance to reissue order once you revealed your gun’s position. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Pilot Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Does putting a covered arc on the area target help prevent the gun from switching to the visible target? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by Ace Pilot: Does putting a covered arc on the area target help prevent the gun from switching to the visible target? I hadn't thought of that. Can you do both at the same time? But it would only work if the new target pops up outside the arc anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman2000 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Covered arcs have worked for me -- when I want a gun crew to keep pounding a point on the map with area fire. Been doing that for a while. I haven't had any problems with enemy units popping up inside those arcs, as I've made them as narrow as possible. Having to take that extra step doesn't bug me, either. It seems to convey the idea that the crew has been told flat out "don't change priorities" until that building, or whatever, has been knocked flat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman2000 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Forgot to add -- I don't know off the top of my head which I draw first, the line of fire or the arc, but it does work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 So now that you have solved Gamax's problem, how many times have you gotten bitten by it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman2000 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 I haven't had it occur for the past few months or so. When I first got the game, I noticed it happened less often than in CMBO, but it still popped up now and then. I can't guesstimate a number off the top of my head. I will say one thing -- it seemed to be more of a problem when targeting patches of woods. Against a building, it was pretty rare. But maybe that had something to do with the fact that alot of the time the AFV/gun in question was blasting away at someone on the 2nd floor -- that and visibility in towns is a lot more restricted than out in the open. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 I think the concept of doing area fire is a bit wrong. Not as a concept; but in the fact that as a commander, you seem to be able to explain to any soldier what area you want to be fired upon with astounding accuracy. (Soldier recieves order) "Provide suppressive fire. Target is near the pine tree to the north." (Soldier looks out over the 20 km<sup>2</sup> pine forest) "Right-on! It's gotta be that one!" /SirReal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaMaX Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lars: So now that you have solved Gamax's problem, how many times have you gotten bitten by it? Well problem isn't solved. That can be solved only by patch 1.04. I did use cover arcs and it helped a bit, but if you play against intelligent (and dirty) opponent, he can put some useless unit (tank hunters, for example) in front of the main target (mortar, gun, etc.) to protect it. That way your gun will not target area, it will target tank hunter, and you can change his order only after 1 min. And sometimes I forget to use cover arc and everything goes to hell... Well, not everything, just the gun. Marko 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaMaX Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by SirReal: (Soldier recieves order) "Provide suppressive fire. Target is near the pine tree to the north." (Soldier looks out over the 20 km<sup>2</sup> pine forest) "Right-on! It's gotta be that one!" /SirReal No, no... It's: "Provide suppressive fire. Target is hidden near the pine tree to the north from where enemy gun just fired and destroyed our tank. You saw that, didn't you, soldier? I was a big muzzle flash near that pine tree, which is now obscured by the dust it raised when fired. Open fire and destroy everything around that dust." Well, that would be the order if gunner were imbecile. Marko 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by SirReal: I think the concept of doing area fire is a bit wrong. Not as a concept; but in the fact that as a commander, you seem to be able to explain to any soldier what area you want to be fired upon with astounding accuracy. (Soldier recieves order) "Provide suppressive fire. Target is near the pine tree to the north." (Soldier looks out over the 20 km<sup>2</sup> pine forest) "Right-on! It's gotta be that one!" /SirReal Area Fire in the current engine is incorrect anyway. We should be able to draw true areas into which the specified unit will randomly direct fire - the bigger the area, the less overall effect. As opposed to the current method of only spreading shots around a point location. I brought this up to BFC last year and they are well aware of it and I think it's on the CM2 wish list. -dale 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Originally posted by dalem: Area Fire in the current engine is incorrect anyway. We should be able to draw true areas into which the specified unit will randomly direct fire - the bigger the area, the less overall effect. As opposed to the current method of only spreading shots around a point location. I brought this up to BFC last year and they are well aware of it and I think it's on the CM2 wish list. -dale Right. I would actually like a "fire volume" setting, rather than the area fire command. </font>Hold fire - Minimal observation, don't fire unless assaulted (when hiding)</font>Defensive - Conserve ammunition, fire only at visible target you think you can hurt (when defending)</font>Aggressive - Fire at visible targets, and fire suppressive fire at known target locations (for overwatch)</font>Suppressive - Like aggressive, but also fire at suspected enemy positions (supporting fire when assaulting)</font> Then this setting would combine with the "Hide" and "Covered arc" settings to determine when, where and how much to fire. /SirReal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Originally posted by Gamax: No, no... It's: "Provide suppressive fire. Target is hidden near the pine tree to the north from where enemy gun just fired and destroyed our tank. You saw that, didn't you, soldier? I was a big muzzle flash near that pine tree, which is now obscured by the dust it raised when fired. Open fire and destroy everything around that dust." Well, that would be the order if gunner were imbecile. Marko You missed my point by a mile, Marko. If there is a clear mark (as in smoke, terrain feature, whatever) where you want the fire to go, then sure. My example was to illustrate that even if there ISN'T a clear mark, or any mark at all, you can still have the fire go exactly where you want it to. /SirReal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaMaX Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 Originally posted by dalem: Area Fire in the current engine is incorrect anyway. We should be able to draw true areas into which the specified unit will randomly direct fire - the bigger the area, the less overall effect. As opposed to the current method of only spreading shots around a point location. I brought this up to BFC last year and they are well aware of it and I think it's on the CM2 wish list. -dale Yes, that would be nice. After all, it is called AREA targeting. But my point was that TacAI gives too low priority to area targeting. And I would liked to see that changed a lot before CM2, I would like to see that in CMAK, if there will be no more patches for CMBB. When I say target area, I mean target area! Marko 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaMaX Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 Originally posted by SirReal: You missed my point by a mile, Marko. If there is a clear mark (as in smoke, terrain feature, whatever) where you want the fire to go, then sure. My example was to illustrate that even if there ISN'T a clear mark, or any mark at all, you can still have the fire go exactly where you want it to. /SirReal Well yes, in that case you are right. But would one target some terrain without reason? To kill some birds? When I give target area command, it is usually because I saw something there. I cannot see it right now, but I know it's there. And I want it routed or destroyed. Marko 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 It is frustrating when you lose the area target. . . but, if BTS makes area targeting stickier it will generate screams of displeasure when that gun DOESN'T switch from area fire when a threat appears and calmly proceeds to knock out the area firing gun. The tools are already available. If you want to keep the area target focused use a narrow covered arc. In doing so you risk getting pounded by something outside the arc but that's the gamble you take. You can't have it both ways. The one thing I would like to see is a "memory" for area targeting so if the firing units gets distracted it will return to continue area targeting after the problem is dispatched. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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