Panzerblitz situations 1-12 into CMBB scenarios

[Hans]

Is anyone making CMBB scenarios out of the original 12 Panzerblitz situations, 1-12?

I'm getting ready to start on those and don't want to duplicate the effort.

Secondarily does anyone have a digital representations of the 3 geomorphic maps? ie one I can follow when making a CMBB map. Unfortunately I have the original 1-12 situation cards but not the maps.

Thanks for your help

[mididoctors]

Originally posted by Hans:

Is anyone making CMBB scenarios out of the original 12 Panzerblitz situations, 1-12?

I'm getting ready to start on those and don't want to duplicate the effort.

Secondarily does anyone have a digital representations of the 3 geomorphic maps? ie one I can follow when making a CMBB map. Unfortunately I have the original 1-12 situation cards but not the maps.

Thanks for your help

I think the hex scale in PB was 250m/hex thus a board some 30+ hexes by 10 is (or 12 can't remember just now) is 2.5km by 7.5Km+ for each board.

PB scenario sused all 3 boards I think...

makes for a 7.5Km by 7.5Km at least...is this two big for CMBB?

I suspect so

Boris

london

[Hans]

A bump

Looking for more information on Panzerblitz and ideas on conversion to CM

[SFJaykey]

Wow, bringing back memories....I played PB and its sequel, Panzer Leader, 20 years ago.

Not to sound discouraging, but in PB and PL the units represented entire platoons, and as has been said the map scales were pretty large. Not sure it will convert directly to CMBB. I think that of the old Avalon Hill games, Squad Leader is the analog for CMBB in terms of scale.

If you want to try a conversion I'd say start with the smaller PB scenarios, and purchase entire CMBB platoons (infantry and vehicles) for each of the PB units.

Re: maps, the PB maps were supposed to represent "typical" terrain and were not historical, so I wouldn't be bound to them. The CMBB maps are far more detailed, so I would just use the random map generator (which seems to do a decent job of creating "typical" terrain, as long as you avoid the large hills). If I still had the old AH games I would scan the map boards for you, but I lost track of them years ago.

Good luck - Matt

[gibsonm]

' ... From the other side of the ridge comes the clanking thunder and the ominous dust-cloud that heralds the arrival of an onrushing wave of deadly steel: German armoured columns on the attack.

... Russian tank commanders slam shut the hatches of their dreaded T-34's ... Gun crews prime their weapons and infantrymen hug the earth ...

... And there - topping the rise! ... A glint of dawn reflecting off the muzzle of the first German tank ...

PanzerBlitz is about to begin!'

(The memories come rushing back).

33 hexes x 11 per board (this includes the partial, but playable edges).

Each hex 250m wide, so that's roughly 2.75km x 8.25km per board. However 2 boards joined at the long side would be 5.25Km x 8.25km due to the partial hexes joining up.

I can take some digital photo's of the boards and email them to you direct if you like.

Do you have a bandwidth limitation - its a 5 Megapixel camera and the files can be huge if you want best quality (roughly a MB per shot).

[ January 28, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: gibsonm ]

[SFJaykey]

Glad somebody had the boards! I figured they'd be out there somewhere.

I had some more thoughts since posting earlier....Hans, I don't know if you're a PB veteran who is just missing the maps, or have never played the game but come across a set of cards, so forgive if my comments are basic:

Turns in PB, IIRC, represented 5 minutes of real time. So there is another scaling issue with conversion to CMBB - but not an insurmountable one. I'm thinking CMBB could actually handle the PB scenarios if they were cast as "Operations." That would open up access to larger maps (up to 24 sq km in CMBB I believe), longer time frames, and make the number of units more manageable by introducing some as reinforcements.

As I recall setup in PB and PL would often place units well behind the action, representing reserves coming up as reinforcements. These would naturally translate as reserves arriving between battles of a CMBB operation.

The map in PB (and even moreso in PL, which had 4 boards) covers a lot more territory than even the largest map allowable in CMBB operations, but as I recall most action was concentrated in the central area. The outer portions of the map were sometimes important for flanking actions, but more often the extra space merely added "travel time" to control the arrival of reinforcements. So with the reinforcement system in CMBB, if you put some thought into how you "crop" the PB maps to fit CMBB, the larger map shouldn't be missed too much.

The other thing I forgot to mention was: if you do succeed in making some conversions that you're satisfied with, I hope you'll post them or email to me directly.....Seeing those familiar old situations in 3-D with CMBB's level of detail would be a blast!

- Matt

[JasonC]

There is of course no requirement that you match the scale, and thus recreate battles of the size originally intended by PB. You can just simulate actions 1-2 echelons smaller in scale.

Replace the high firepower artillery units (15 or higher in the original PB is a good cut-off for that) with FOs, the smaller direct fire batteries with single on-map guns, the tank units by one tank of that type, and count the infantry units as squads (maybe as 2 squads each for the Russians - in PB those infantry units are companies, with typically twice the defense factor of the German platoon units).

If you "scale it down" that way, I'd recommend making each PB "hex" a 60m by 60m area of CM terrain - thus one map width the narrow way would be 600m, the long way about 2 km.

[Quinxi]

Sent copies of the PZ Bliltz and PZ Leader maps to you last week.

[Hans]

Thanks for the responses

Got those maps Quinxi, just need to know which one is No1, 2 and 3!

Yep, I will try a scale down of Situation 1 and let you know when it is finished.

Looking at the maps Q sent I will follow the PB outline but add a bit more detail for CM (all the hills and forests/villages will be there but the ground will be more uneven, sparse woods scattered, etc.)

I will try it both as platoons and individual vehicles and see what works best.

I agree on the representation of arty and reserves

Any guesses on what constitutes a fort, mines and CP?

Fort = 3 trenches, 6 wire, 3 AP mines, 2 bunkers

CP = trench plus 1 "stripped" BN HQ & 1 LMG, 1 truck and 1 hubelwagen.

Mines 2 each AT & AP?

Thoughts?

[Hans]

Hi there PB lovers

The first map is complete. Followed Jason Cs suggestion on scale down, ie 60 (3 squares) of CMBB equals one hex on Panzerblitz. Seems like a usuable size. This creates a 1800 x 1800 area. A 1200 x 1200 seemed cramped and bigger seemed to large for the forces.

Went with one cmbb unit per PB unit with multiple items for obstacles and CP and Forts.

Question for someone with a PB board (thanks again to Quinxi who sent me full color copies by email)

On board 2, on the big hill near the village of Bednost there is something written alongside the road it seems to say, "Bolschaya Doroya S1" I really cannot read the last characters so if anyone can let me know.

Second question what does that mean? Is the road suppose to be a hard ball (Asphalt) road?

Had to make some compromises, some of the gullies/streams I made water filled and others depressions with soft soil, rocky and large rocks. A few I mixed. I'll ask opinions later on what works best or whether a mix is okay

Hills were a problem, obviously I couldn't have a 35 meter hill rise up in just 60 meters to a table top mesa. So the hill are "normal" with the highest point at the survey marker and a gradual slope.

The map is "plain vanilla" without any CM adornments (well except for the village of Bednost where I put in a church!). I was thinking of leaving a version of PB situation 1 as "plain" for the purists and then making another version with a with more realistic CMBB terrain enhancements, brush, scattered trees, walls, grain fields and buildings etc.

Finally looking at the maps the same map could be used for NINE of the original scenarios, moving the maps around doesn't really change the terrain that much and it takes 7-8 hours to make. Will do the two battles with the end to end maps thou.

Thanks for everyones help

Once I get the answer to my questions above I put out a draft for play testing.

Email me at wayne100@emirates.net.ae if you'd like to playtest the draft. The finished version will go up at the Scenario Depot after the testing.

[Hans]

bump

[mididoctors]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

[QB] ? ... From the other side of the ridge comes the clanking thunder and the ominous dust-cloud that heralds the arrival of an onrushing wave of deadly steel: German armoured columns on the attack.

... Russian tank commanders slam shut the hatches of their dreaded T-34?s ... Gun crews prime their weapons and infantrymen hug the earth ...

... And there - topping the rise! ... A glint of dawn reflecting off the muzzle of the first German tank ...

PanzerBlitz is about to begin!?

(The memories come rushing back).

Yes remember PanzerBush

Boris

London

Nostalgia it's not what it used to be.

[gibsonm]

Yes remember PanzerBush

Boris

London

Nostalgia it's not what it used to be.

Ah yes and the joy of standing off (just inside half range of course to double the attack factor) and blazing away at infantry in a town since they were armoured targets.

If only MOUT (or FIBUA) were that easy in real life!

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Hans:

Question for someone with a PB board (thanks again to Quinxi who sent me full color copies by email)

On board 2, on the big hill near the village of Bednost there is something written alongside the road it seems to say, "Bolschaya Doroya S1" I really cannot read the last characters so if anyone can let me know.

Second question what does that mean? Is the road suppose to be a hard ball (Asphalt) road?

1. "Bolschaya Doroya 61"

2. I haven't a clue. I had always thought it was a name for the road (e.g. "East Route 61" or somesuch).

As far as I know "roads" in PB are pretty generic. There is no differentiation between a goat track and an autobahn (nor does the weather matter). So a road is just as trafficable in the depths of winter or in spring or summer. General Mud doesn't make an appearance.

Email me at wayne100@emirates.net.ae if you'd like to playtest the draft. The finished version will go up at the Scenario Depot after the testing.

Please add me to you list (details in my profile).

I'll keep the box down out of the bookcase in case you need any more info.

[Hans]

Thanks Mark

Didn't find your email in the profile (couldn't find the profile to be honest)

[JasonC]

For a block, use 1 roadblock and 3 wire. For a mine, use 1 hidden AT minefield and 3 AP minefields. For a fort, use 1 wooden bunker with MG and 3 trenches.

Scenarios often given several of these items, so you don't need to overdo the contents of each one. This is for a scale where one tank unit in PB becomes one CMBB tank.

As for the CP/LP, it should not have full organic transport (you needed a truck to move them in PB) and it should not be so useful. In PB they were mostly targets and objectives to take out (they also represented FO locations, in effect). I recommend the following (using "stripped" formations) -

green battalion HQ, unfit men (optional)

green company HQ, unfit men

2 green weapons HQs, unfit men

1 green jeep or kubelwagen

1 TRP (optional)

All +2 ratings reduced to +1. All +1 ratings reduced to 0. No MGs. They will fight like poorly armed "service troops" not used to combat, though with lots of brass to go around. Also high VPs for KOing vunerable units if you take them out (which is the main idea).

If there are more than one CP/LP in the PB scenario, only use the company and platoon HQs for the additional ones, using only a single battalion HQ (even one is optional). You can make additional "weapons platoon" HQs as needed by stripping the squads from infantry platoons, of course.

As for the hills, the key thing is to make the large "plateau" one a "sugar loaf", "dome" shape hill, not a "cusp" peak. The military crest (observation to below) should be far from the actual peak, with limited LOS lines only onto parts of the hill for those above the military crest.

That makes the fight around the peak a "reverse slopes, hull down everywhere" knife-fight. And isolates it in firepower terms from actions in the surrounding valleys. Which are the key tactical aspects of the original PB hill.

(You did "reverse slope" defense stuff from the top of that one in PB, by just staying back from the "military crest". When attackers reached the military crest, they were isolated from the rest of their force, facing the hill defenders alone).

So, the slope should rise relatively fast at the edges of the hill (+1 elevation per CM tile, thus +3 per PB hex for both slope and first hill-top hexes), and more gradually higher up (+1 elevation per 3 tiles = PB hex e.g.), "concave down".

If you want to simulate some hills being higher than others, use +2 per PB hex for slope and first hill on the lower ones. "Knife edge" ridges, where in PB you have slope up against slope without an intervening hilltop hex, make 1 higher in the "transitional" 2 tiles (that is, the part of both the 3 by 3 blocks that touch)- that will put the "hull down" and sighting block stuff in the right places.

I hope these suggestions help, and I am quite interested in taking part in testing, so I'd love to see the files. My email is -

jasoncawley1@ameritech.net

[Hans]

JasonC

Thanks for the input, working with Quinxi and the other suggestions on figuring out a "formula" that can be used to reduce the sizes/amounts of the PB units.

James Dunnigan the original designer had a somewhat lower opinion of Soviet capabilities than the CMBB guys do.

Plus we've shrunk the concept down too. Working on it.

Found that the PZ CP consisted of 6 men so I'm using a Infantry BN HQ with leadership and ammo removed. Decided not to touch the morale and fitness as they are not modelled in PZ. Everbody gets to be a fit regular.

Had a message from another source who said that original designer (in reply to another recreation question) that the forts had no fire power capability and represent field fortification only.

Question do you think the PB "board" should be recreated as is or in CMBB style, with additional fields fences etc?

A positive action you could take, PZ situation 9 uses the same map. Play around with the OOB and see what you'd recommend the CM units to be. It would be appreciated! Oh the present map is 1800 x 1800.

Should have a finished full blown CMBB map in about 4-5 days. Doing a playtest now on units/sizes on the prelim PZ style map at the moment.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Hans:

Thanks Mark

Didn't find your email in the profile (couldn't find the profile to be honest)

Hans,

gibsonm@bigpond.net.au.

BTW: The profile is the little index card type icon with a person outline beside the date details of the post.

[JasonC]

On the CP, I'd leave the ammo. No point in making them completely defenseless. A battalion HQ alone is vunerable enough as it is.

On the forts, yes they had no firepower in PB. You put units under them, and they took on its high defense value. The nearest thing to that is trenches, 3 of them (to cover the same ground, etc).

But the thing is, in PB they were also "armored" target type, making arty less effective and direct fire AT stuff more effective against them. Which is something only bunkers really do in CMBB. One MG in a log bunker is a a minimum form of that.

Or you can vary it with the scenario, and use e.g. a concrete bunker with 88 for both a fort and an 88 unit. That is more like how they were typically used in PB. Guns have tiny defense values, but huge ones in such forts; they made them tougher than Tiger platoons. Infantry had pretty good defense on its own, so it was the guns that generally lived in them.

On scenario 9, I know it was Drive on Stalino. But it has been a long time since I actually played Panzerblitz, and I do not still have a copy of the game. So if you want me to think about the OOB for the CMBB adaptation, you'd have to tell me what it was in the original - lol.

On map extras like fences and other minor touches, I think they would help, yes. Don't go overboard, but realistic looking rather than literalist translation of PB boards is the way to go. Remember the original did not such such details because the scale was larger - not to mention that wargames were more primitive in those days, etc.

[ January 29, 2003, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Glenn]

If I (as a newbie) may be so bold as to make a suggestion here to your REALLY excellent idea of making CMBB scenarios from the PB sets; what I used to do was make ASL scenarios based on PB and/or PL sets. The way I did this was to take one segment of the PL or PB battle (say, divide the map into 3rds, or something like that, and take all units that were within that segment). Then, I could make the entire platoon/company/whatever that fell within that segment out of individual SL units. This avoided the necessity of "scaling" down the units. Sometimes I would wait until a turn or 3 had been played before I counted out who was where, and sometimes some "not-so-straight" boundaries had to be drawn or it would be an easy victory for one side, but in the end it was "do-able". The other thing with that is that you don't just divide up units, but you also only use that portion of the map that falls within that one-third (or whatever you choose) area. By the by, since you did ask, my preference would be to use all of the terrain features available, within the context of the scenario of course, in your maps - as good as they were for their time, PB and PL were pretty spartan by CMBB standards . I'm not sure how easy all that is compared with what you have in mind, but it is another option that you might want to explore further down the road.

Since I'm still waiting for CMBB/CMBO to arrive, I'm kind of groping in the dark here as to whether or not my idea is viable in CMBB, but I throw it out to you to do with as you see fit.

Best of luck, and I hope you'll post them when they become available. That's a superb idea you have! Thanks!

Glenn

[Hans]

Thanks for the imput

Dang so that where's the addresses, are, 2 1/2 years on the forum and I never knew that!

Glenn, wow waiting for the games, I'd play CMBO first because I haven't touched it since I got CMBB (left twelve scenarios unfinished too!)

Jason, ah you don't have PB either, yeah I have been relying on Quinxi for the data

Here is the OOB 4th Guards Mech Corps

9 x Guards Inf Company

1 x SMG company

3 x 45mm ATG

3 x 76.2 ATG

1 x 82mm

3 x 82mm (this one has 1 less attack but an armor symbol under range (not sure what that means)

3 x 120mm

3 x recon

1 x 12.7

2 x pioneers

4 x T-34 C

2 x SU-76

2 x SU-152

17 x trucks

6 x HT

Germs elements of the 514th Inf Regiment of the 294th Div

14 x infantry platoons (rifle)

2 x 81mm

2 x 75mm Howitzer

1 x 150mm Howitzer

2 x 75mm ATG

2 x 120mm

3 x trucks

3 x wagon (trucks or kubelwagens)

6 x obstacles

3 x mines

2 x pioneers

obviously if you do a straight creation you get around 6-8000 points-a monster, would like to get them down to play able size

I also like your ideas on the forts will experiment a bit

Thanks all

[Glenn]

Hi Hans,

Thanks, I will do CMBO first (actually, I'm loving the demo, so even if CMBO isn't as up to date as CMBB, it will still hold my attention, I'm sure . Best of luck with the scenarios, and thanks once again!

Glenn

[JasonC]

I'd do those like this -

Russians Force Type - Guards Mechanized, 2525 points (about)

Motorized Rifle Battalion (Tank) 43A - one, complete. Note, comes with 6-tube 82mm FO.

1 Recon Platoon (Recon Batt. Tank - type)

1 Pioneer Platoon (Mot. Pion. Batt. Mech type)

3 82mm Mortar, on map

1 120mm FO

T-34 model 1943 (late) Platoon (3 vehicles)

Plus 4th T-34, same model, independent

Su-152 Platoon (2 vehicles)

Su-76M Platoon (2 vehicles)

5 M5 Halftracks

5 Trucks

Note - if you think that gives the Russians too much SMG infantry, the cut out 2 of the SMG platoons, leaving just 1, and add a 6th platoon of "B" stype infantry (same type as in the rest of the battalion) instead.

If you leave out the trucks completely, add a 6th M5 halftrack to the Russian OOB. There is no point in giving them 17 of them on the tactical scale. The numbers used are for point ratio balancing.

Germans - infantry division force type, 1675 points

Grenadier Company

4th Grenadier Platoon

Pioneer Platoon, reduced (2 rather than 3 of each type, S, SL, and Flame)

3 Panzerschrecks

+1 = 3 HMG42 all told

2 81mm mortars, on map

2 75mm infantry guns, on map

1 150mm infantry gun, on map

2 75mm PAK

1 120mm FO (radio)

3 trucks

plus fortifications as follows -

dug in with fall-backs

6 trenches

20 wire

10 AP minefield

3 AT minefield

3 Roadblock

2 TRP

Not being slavishly literal to the suggested "exchange rates" for mines, blocks, etc. This is a dug in force with obstacles, and the above budget will reflect that.

The point odds are "attack" ratio. The Germans are split roughly 35% each on infantry and "support" (guns mostly), modest off board arty and unarmed vehicles, the balance on an extensive fortification mix. The Russians are split between 1/3 each infantry and armor, with the remaining 1/3 divided roughly evenly among support, vehicles, and off board arty.

It should faithfully recreate the basic situation, a German gun and obstacle based, infantry force type defense, against a more numerous combined arms Russian attack.

I hope this helps.

[Hans]

Thanks JasonC

Your insight certainly helps, the point range is about where I had it. Comfortable but not overwhelming.

The first playtest of Situation 1 is proving to be interesting. Quinxi, that maddog, is conducting a Soviet overrun attack and it seemes to be working.

The map has been "CMBB'd" completed, another day or so to complete the briefings (assuming no changes fromt he playtest) and the first situation will be ready for outside play testing with you guys

(including you Glenn)

[davidh]

I'm curious... has there been any further activity with this project? Any Panzerblitz scenario conversions to CMBB released yet?