Scoot, don't shoot, get nailed

[Sivodsi]

This interesting behaviour is noted in an ongoing PBEM, which I'm having a lot of fun in. Its not a big deal because it will have no effect on the outcome of the battle, but it peeved me a bit.

This is the situation: a T-70 behind a building, a PIII at about 250 metres or so, not quite facing the t-70 - the turret will have to traverse a short distance to target the little tank in order to hit it. I want to harry the PIII, so although I know there is little chance of knocking it out I use the shoot and scoot command. The t-70 moves out into LOS and... a pregnant pause while I wait for it to fire at the PIII, but nothing happens. Doesn't scoot, doesn't fire, just waits while the PIII turns its nasty little turret fires once and knocks it out.

Is this a glitch in the AI? Is there anything else that explains this suicidical behaviour? The crew were rated as 'crack' so it should not be because they dropped the clutch etc. If the commander was pooing his pants he should have scooted away straight away immediately after spotting the PIII, instead he just sat there in full LOS.

Anybody experienced anything similar?

Look forward to your comments

[Sergei]

In my experience, Sh'n'Sc. makes the unit go to the designated point and then wait there for a certain amount of time before it pulls back. If it doesn't see an appropriate target, it just stands there until some time has passed.

Your T-70 decided that it couldn't hurt the Panzer, and didn't act against it, hoping for a better target to show up. Meanwhile, as it was crack level, it didn't bug out either but followed the order to the bitter end.

[dieseltaylor]

So presumably manually putting in a fast move, V arc, and a reverse, would have been a safer bet?

[Magyar]

Was your T-70 buttoned?

Was the PzIII buttoned?

Was the PzIII 37/50/75?

Did you have an armor cover arc set to cover directly towards your intended target?

Did you manually pre-target the Panzer before scooting?

Dusk/dawn or clear conditions?

If your T-70 was buttoned before scooting out and the PzIII was anything bigger than 37mm it was dead because it simply was blind and never saw what hit it.

[Peregrine]

This may be bug that pops up occassionally.

Often I will use shoot and scoot with orders delay to make it start at about 45-50 seconds. That way at the next orders phase it will already have completed the shoot part and be either starting or about to start the scoot. If I don't like what the tanks sees I let it scoot or on the other hand I can choose remove the reverse order and leave it out there if I do like what it sees.

Anyway in the hundreds (maybe thousands) of times I have done this I have definitely noticed on two separate occasions the scoot not be performed.

I can only remember the details of the second but roughly what happened is:

* Regular STUG (can't remember the type) scoots to the crest and gets there at about 52 seconds.

* It is spotted by about 4 enemy tanks at about 800m. 3 of which are Su-152s? (memory not good with these tanks) The nasty russian assault guns that can kill tigers in 43.

* STUG just sits there and the video ends.

* Orders time now and I am thinking I am glad I am scooting but when I look at the orders for the STUG it has none. The scoot never happened (game bug) or the TAC AI overruled it (TAC AI bug). I had to give it a reverse to move which meant another 10 seconds sitting out in the open. Now 18 totally seconds.

* Even those slow Russian assault gun (later found out they were crack) had time to turn to shoot.

* STUG was hit and exploded before it reversed.

PS You unit is right not to shoot. If the T70 can't kill the PIII all it is going to do is draw unwarranted attention to itself.

[Soddball]

To get the best from S&S, I use a covered arc and then I also 'target' the unit, whether I can see it or not. The 'unit memory' comes into play and you're more likely to gain a shot. If you have a unit with binoculars pointing at the target of S&S it works better too (I think).

[Sivodsi]

Hmmmm, food for thought indeed.

It was buttoned, but the 50mm gunned PIII was right in front and I did have a covered arc on it, so it was pointing the right direction. This is at midday so I don't think darkness will be a factor.

Sergei: Regarding 'crack' level troops- I thought these guys would be more likely to use their initiative in situations like these. Rather than follow orders to the book and get killed, surely a crack level tank would either take the shot at a weak point in the PIII's armor, or use its initiative and bug out rather than refuse to take a shot and just stay there.

Magyar: does manually targeting work? I thought that you can manually target something, but if the unit cannot see it the targetting line just disappears. Anybody ever done any tests on this?

As I said, I didn't expect to kill the PIII, merely to distract it. I guess I succeeded, but it was dearly bought.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Soddball:

To get the best from S&S, I use a covered arc and then I also 'target' the unit, whether I can see it or not. The 'unit memory' comes into play and you're more likely to gain a shot. If you have a unit with binoculars pointing at the target of S&S it works better too (I think).

Covered arc doesn't make any difference here other than it helps at pointing the turret to the right direct, but if you are moving to the direction of the target, the turret is already facing that way.

Remember, the arc only tells the unit to not target units outside the arc. It doesn't make target acquiring any more likely.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Sivodsi:

Sergei: Regarding 'crack' level troops- I thought these guys would be more likely to use their initiative in situations like these. Rather than follow orders to the book and get killed, surely a crack level tank would either take the shot at a weak point in the PIII's armor, or use its initiative and bug out rather than refuse to take a shot and just stay there.

No, TacAI doesn't use initiative or imagination. Either it follows orders, fires at available targets, or cowers. But cowering is something that conscripts are more likely to do than the elite. In this case, your tank bravely followed the orders, didn't find a suitable target but waited for such to show up, and... boom.

Units are, IMO, more likely to withdraw when they have no existing orders, but in this case the T-70 had orders, so it waited instead.

[Wicky]

"It was buttoned" is the critical factor - I ran a test in clear mid-day conditions at the distance you specified and the crack T-70 (no cuppola) will not spot a reg PzIII whilst buttoned in a shoot & scoot move for a vital 8+ seconds and if the opposition tank is unbottoned (even if buttoned with the cuppola giving better visibility), the PzIII will always get a potentialy fatal 1st shot off before it is even seen.

The cover arc and pre-targeting would have undoubtedly helped the reaction time to the threat if you had caused the Pz to button up first and for you critically to have been unbuttoned.

Originally posted by Sivodsi:

Hmmmm, food for thought indeed.

It was buttoned

[ October 03, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

[Sivodsi]

Thanks Wicky - that is the answer.

Pretty surprising that it can't spot for this amount of time since the turret was pointing right at it. You would think on a shoot and scoot the commander would be pretty keen to look at what his barrel is pointing at.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Soddball:

To get the best from S&S, I use a covered arc and then I also 'target' the unit, whether I can see it or not. The 'unit memory' comes into play and you're more likely to gain a shot. If you have a unit with binoculars pointing at the target of S&S it works better too (I think).

Covered arc doesn't make any difference here other than it helps at pointing the turret to the right direct, but if you are moving to the direction of the target, the turret is already facing that way.

Remember, the arc only tells the unit to not target units outside the arc. It doesn't make target acquiring any more likely. </font>

[Wicky]

Ta - BFC have moddeled the extended spotting delay I'm sure to simulate, 1) lack of cuppola and 2) it was only a two man tank, with the commander also doubling as gun operator plus radio operator? So after a fast command (that hampers spotting by itself) which is the 1st part of the shoot and scoot command, and the other factors, then the commander is very hampered in his capability of what you presume he should be easily doing.

The best way to have done it would be unbuttened, and made the scoot & shoot to only just peek around the corner of the house, therby limiting total time exposed, also get the fast forward and reverse waypoint lines to exactly overlap (this minimises/dispenses with the time it takes for the tank to rotate, after shooting, to get back on reverse course). Not forgetting the covered arc set for where you expect him to be

This way you can offset your spotting disadvantage and maximize your speed and fast turret speed against his slow turret speed.

Originally posted by Sivodsi:

Thanks Wicky - that is the answer.

Pretty surprising that it can't spot for this amount of time since the turret was pointing right at it. You would think on a shoot and scoot the commander would be pretty keen to look at what his barrel is pointing at.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Remember, the arc only tells the unit to not target units outside the arc. It doesn't make target acquiring any more likely.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the case and that a unit will be more likely to fire at an enemy within the covered arc.

Yup. Preeety sure.

[Sergei]

Steve or Moon or some other Authority gave that piece of information.