Since you little forum children are now so bored....

[JerseyJohn]

Yes -- and all great performances with Wallach stealing the show. Terrific Poster as well.

[ May 25, 2003, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Ah Ah Ah, men HUSH. We know it's comming. It's a dead issue. I can sense that an SC2 will sell to everyone that bought SC1 and it's just a matter of time before Hubert decides to dedicate the time and energy to it. Today, 2 years from now. Patience...

P.S. It needs to be marketed better! Lots of WarGamers on-line and little said about SC in any of them.

[Comrade Trapp]

I personally wouldn't have known about SC or this site if it hadn't been for PC Gamer mentioning it in a artical.

Comrade Trapp

[JerseyJohn]

We might have read the same review -- I remember the magazine singled out the Battle of the Atlantic as being the glaring weakness and also that U-boats weren't a good investment. On the other extreme it liked the economic and research ideas and how higher technology also led to increased unit cost.

Prior to that article the editor of that magazine spent a long time bemoaning the lack of good European Theater WW II strategy games.

[ May 27, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage:

Life isn't fair. Repeat that to yourself everytime you feel you are getting screwed.

...There are some things in life that are best left unsaid....

And Mother said I would never learn anything playing computer games.... Ha.!

Sincerely,

Captain Unconscious

[SeaWolf_48]

This is a very frivallis posting topic but nothing else intrests me today, so here goes, maybe I can spice it up!

Life isn't fair!

You don't really have any choices anyway, so what does fair have to do with it. You don't choose your: name, when your born, what you look like, where you were born, who your parents are, how smart you are, your physical stature, the size of the main appendage, who you marry, if you marry, how long you live, etc. etc. etc.

If you were born and lived in Nazi Germany would you have been a Nazi? Probibly

If you were born and lived in Russia during Stalin would you have supported him? Most likely

If you lived in the computer age and had enough money to buy Strategic Command would you do it? Definitely Yes

Therefore is life fair?

[Night]

Obviously I missed a lot...

[JerseyJohn]

SeaWolf my friend, a very interesting Topic to toss around.

Not so much frivolous as philosphical.

Along the line I've lost several friendships in my life because I said, given a similar backgroung applied to being a German adult in the 1920s, beyond doubt I'd have become a nazi.

Yes, I'm afraid if I'd been a returning veteran caught in a national humiliation and seeking a skapegoat I'd have listened very attentively to that screaming madman with the short mustache.

In the 1980s I met exactly such a man who was living in Brooklyn. He was a decorated World War One German infantryman and one of the early nazis. A brownshirt in the 1920s and when I knew him he was an old man wearing a yarmulke. It sounds unbelievable but it's true.

His mother was Jewish and he considered himself to be completely German. It wasn't till after the nazis started becoming part of the government that they started checking backgrounds more closely. His former buddies, in a last act of friendship, advised him to leave the country. Which he did. His parents remained behind and both vanished during the war. Along the way he became Jewish.

He told me if circumstances had been a little different he'd have turned into the most fanatical storm trooper imaginable. He admitted that, while running with the pack he beat up anyone they beat up and was thoroughly pleased to do so. He'd say it with teary eyes, as though he'd been trying to somehow atone for it ever since.

Whether life is fair or not, I've come to feel the way things develop rarely makes much sense.

[ May 28, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

What it comes down to is that you have to satisfy the basic needs first before you can pontificate about the needs of the world.

Food, clothing and shelter come first. If you don't have it, you will do what you can to get it.

Our problem as a nation is that the "basics" in life for us have become something that a small percentage in this world will ever achieve.

So for food it has to be meat every day. For clothing its different set of clothes for each day of the week, if not the month. And for shelter its everyone with thier own room. Lets not forget the SUVs and cable and fast foods and vacations and plastic surgery and Hollywood, etc.

And while we pig out on the resources of the world, is it any wonder that everyone else looks at us and wonders? And those that are starving look at us and hate us? Just like the poor in the US hate the rich and the middle class envy them.

Life isn't fair. And then you die.

[jon_j_rambo]

Interesting subject: If I lived in Nazi Germany, would I have been a Nazi?

Don't be so sure you would "join". Just because you watched a bunch of Nazis yelling, well-organized, with a purpose, slogans, idols, symbols, anti-Commie, anti-League of Nations, etc...this does NOT mean you would join.

In the 2003, watching those old speeches of Hitler the History Channel can be entertaining. People were drawn with hope & purpose, but there would be a point in which you would need to make critical decisions on who to follow.

Say you did join, how far would you go? What would you do when Truth began to be exposed: beatings, executions, intimidations, vandalism, hate, etc. Don't you think your conscience would pull you another direction?

The Simple ABC's of beliefs:

A --- Accept, have you accepted?

B --- Believe, have you believed?

C --- Confession, have you confessed?

Join no political party.

Join no organized religion.

Rambo 3:16

John 3:16

[JerseyJohn]

Rambo

Great posting, a lot to think about.

Regarding your A, B, C's -- "Join no political party, Join no organized religion," I agree and live by them as well. I liked the way Hueristic put it, "Freedom of Religion also means Freedom from Religion." I don't look down on anyone's religious beliefs and admire most, but don't want anyone pushing them on those who don't want to join.

Regarding the nazis, I guess it depends upon circumstances. Certainly a lot of people became nazis in it's early days and lost enthusiasm for it over the years.

I like your point about what degree a person would go to. Yes, that varies drastically as well. At one point in my life I tried to think the best of everyone. Over the years I've seen a lot of people I had good feelings towards become sell-outs, opting for either money, power or just a little attention. Over those same years I've seen others hold firm even when it meant losing things. The acid test is to actually go through something.

What I meant in the earlier posting is pretty much this: If I had been a young German soldier returning from WW I to a once proud and wealthy country suddenly ruined I don't think I doubt I'd have been very philosophical about the situation. Probably I'd have joined. It's also possible I would have joined the socialists instead -- as Hitler probably did right after returning from the war.

From there it's impossible to say how far anyone would have taken it. I suspect most with innocent blood on their hands crossed a certain line, perhaps throwing a brick through a shop window and shouting things I won't write, and after that they crossed one line after another till they were committing the worst forms of attrocities.

As Shaka said earlier, if the starting point is not having any food for yourself and your family, then people do things in desperation.

I'm glad I've never witnessed that first hand and hope none of us ever will.

[ May 29, 2003, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[xwormwood]

" I'm glad I've never witnessed that first hand and hope none of us ever will. "

Amen.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by jon-j-rambo:

Say you did join, how far would you go?

Interesting question, as valid today as it was when we were going to & fro and roaming around singing & slaying! out on the Vast Savannah.

Here's one true story. Take it as you will.

Long ago there was a social experiment... back in the days BEFORE the John Q Public began wondering about "brainwashing" and "mind control" (... The Manchurian Candidate was topical news) and the extent that Pscyhologists were allowed to go in their search for Truth, Beauty and the Need to Know.

Anyway, these white-coated "doctors" brought the test-subject into a room, and he was INSTRUCTED to apply electrical current (... by way of a console with dials... which actually wasn't attached to anything at all) to another human (... a "ringer" or, part of the experiment).

The white-coated doctors (... the "authority figures" who may just as easily have been military officers or high-school teachers, etc) then told the test-subject to begin turning up the heat... gradually increasing the amounts of electrical current applied to the "other guy" who is sitting, hooked up to wires... AND THE TEST SUBJECT CAN SEE HIM, and HEAR HIM should he choose to try and communicate.

So, the dial is steadily moved higher... the "doctor" is hovering nearby, TELLING the test subject - go higher, GO HIGHER!

Meanwhile, as the dial is turned up, 2, 4, 7... 10 :eek: the "victim" of the fake electrical current is now... BEGGING for relief, even screaming from the (non-existent)pain... one guy even claimed he was having a heart-attack, writhing around and begging for his very life!

But,

the test-subjects, almost without exception, KEPT RIGHT ON turning up the electrical current.

Now, these were very ordinary Joes & Janes, screened for "normalcy" so that you would not get any psychopaths or otherwise overly sadistic test subjects (... you CAN tell, not merely by psychological testing, but by looking in the eyes... it isn't what's there, usually... it's what ISN'T THERE, as most of you know from your own experience.)

Think of this... fairly ordinary Americans, who prize their independence and extremely individual nature, WILL APPLY torture... IF AN AUTHORITY FIGURE says... it's OK.

This test result shocked the sensibilities of those who read about it, or saw the actual TV story... it changed many people's minds about just how "evil" the "Good German people" were, in comparison to other cultures.

JJ has made a good point... we DON'T know what we would have done if we had lived in Germany in the 1930s... this doesn't excuse the horrific crimes against LIFE and against "God" (... however you perceive that... innate yearning for something GREATER than we are, or can be) that were committed in the name of "reclaiming lost National Status."

After all, throughout the Renaissance and well into the 20th Century, the Germans were leaders in very many scientific, academic, and industrial fields... everything from Psychology and Anthropology and Optics and History (rigorous standards of veracity) and... Poetry & Aesthetics and... well, they were a highly accomplished and studious "volk."

If the evidence before our eyes suggests that ANY people, no matter how educated or righteous or well-meaning, MIGHT indeed act as a back-brain Brute... upon orders from "an authority figure"... well, it is best, I am thinking,

TO CONTINUE to keep a very watchful and mindful eye on ANY of our leaders, no matter what party or what innocent claims to the contrary, yes?

[Shaka of Carthage]

Our Authority figures need to be kept in check. True.

But there is another side of this that never gets addressed. Survival. But how far do you go?

If you walked to work everyday thru a certain community, and during that time every now and then someone would shoot at you or plant a booby trap in your path. Then what do you do? You have to get to work everyday. But is it right, to ensure your survival that you take action against the whole community? That others die, so you can live? Espeically when some who die, if not most of them, are innocent? Where exactly do you draw the line.

And there is no authority figure for you to depend on. You have to decide by yourself.

Those perceptions of survival are some of the buttons authority figures push to make you take actions you would not otherwise dream of.

Something about the easy way, the right way and morality. And having to live with those choices.

[JerseyJohn]

Immer

I'm glad you cited that experiment -- what's especially great about it is the whole thing was filmed by hidden camera. And you're right, most of the people involved had absolutely passive expressions. They were only following instructions. More familiar as "I was only obeying orders."

One of the Death Camp commanders, Rudoph Hoess (not to be confused with Rudolph Hess) was allowed to write his memoirs while awaiting execution. Auschwitz Commandant is recommended reading for anyone who doubts these facts of life. The book is a plant manager's ledger book. He was processing units, not killing innocent human beings. The extra large crematoria had too many imperfections and drastically slowed production, especially due to frequent breakdowns from overuse!

There was a similar experiment. No doubt you're much more familiar with it than I am. Two groups of college students in the late sixties. One group was the jailors and the other were the prisoners. It had to be aborted after only a few days -- to find out why we only need to read William Golding's novel Lord of the Flies, or the tragically nonfiction Commandant Auschwitz by Hoess.

[ May 29, 2003, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Great points all the way through. What especially hits home is the part about walking through dangerous neighborhoods.

During the eighties I lived on Manhattan's Upper East Side and worked the Midnight Shift downtown in a buiding astride the Holland Tunnel. I used to walk to and from work; probably a few miles actual distance, but it was preferable to sitting in a subway car -- and probably safer.

At the time NYC was in the middle of what was possibly it's worst crime era. The mayors always decided the best way to save money was to cut back on the number of policemen. Not a very wise policy in a city that probably had 3,000,000 people more than it's actual census figures, putting it somewhere around 10,000,000.

Under the circumstances it seemed a pair of good hobbies would be heavy duty weightlifing and karate, along with chess, of course. So I became a regular at a gym near chinatown where there were plenty of free weights but, more importantly, pleny of Asian guys who knew how to inflict maximum damage with minimum movement. I found most of them loved to discuss these things and demonstrate on those large hanging punching bags. I became an eager student, learning things like pressure points, etc..

Jumping to the chase, on my nightly walks I also carried a few weapons. An amazing transition occurred. Where, at first, I'd avoided dangerous looking parts of the streets -- places where there were no lights, likely ambush points, etc., I later reversed this sensible policy and began going through those very areas.

It was sort of comical, I'd stomp with my heavy boots, glaring at winos and derelicts, a lethal arsenal tucked away in my clothes and boots, ready, willing and pretty damn eager to kill an attacker. What I got in return was a lot of things like "Yo Blood -- it's cool man, chill out brother!" from shadowy derelicts trying their best to get a good nights sleep for the next day's panhandling. Then I'd get to work and read Spinoza or St. Augustine on my breaks.

I have yet to figure whether I was working from fear or beligerance or what the motivating factor was, because none of it included any emotion. There was a boogeyman in the closet but when I opened the door it was only an old jacket. Probably the real muggers were also working midnight shifts of their own, and they wouldn't have wasted either their time or skills in the derelict neighborhoods I was walking through.

Germany of the thirties reminds of that. Warsaw is too close to Berlin, better deal with that threat. France is too close to the industrial Rhine, better deal with that as well. Hmmm, The same holds true of Belgium and Holland, too close, what if they join our enemies? Meanwhile that sort of reasoning goes a long way to creating the very enemies we're afraid of.

The next step is to make enemy and neighbor one and the same, they all need to be taken under direct control just to be on the safe side.

And, of course, after either directly absorbing your neighbors or forcing them into submissive alliance roles, there's a new set of neighbors to be weary of. And at this point it isn't just security you're after but also their wheat, mineral wealth and oil. Or, in the case of the United States, sudden findings of gold on good hunting land that was supposedly given over, in perpetuity, to some people who were hopelessly behind the times and in no need of it.

By nature we're all inclined to follow the lead of someone or some group that's in charge. If we'd been set by nature to only work as individuals we'd still be scanvanging from lion kills. But when you get right down to it, who does the leader turn to for leadership? Like they say, "it's lonely at the top" and to make matters worse, leadership is too often determined by almost random factors. The second worst being by birth, the worst being by murdering one's way past rivals.

A good method of determing who we follow helps, but I suspect the real problem is we haven't yet matured as a species.

[ May 29, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

JerseyJohn

The mindset you described is exactly why "peacekeeping" is bad for military troops. Once you get trained, just like the individual who newly learns martial arts, you are aggressive. You want someone to pick a fight so you can show them. Especially if you used to get your butt kicked before you learned martial arts!

And for soldiers, you want that aggressive spirit.

As you get older (or you have a few fights) that "inner calm" becomes more pronounced. You realize you aren't indestructible and there are things in the world you want to enjoy. These are the guys who need to be out there doing "peacekeeping" for the military... as in National Guard.

Of course, if you are a politician, none of this counts. Its amazing how the guys who never served are so "hawkish" once they became the leadership. Clinton and Bush Jr love(ed) to crack that military wip.

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

"Of course, if you are a politician, none of this counts. Its amazing how the guys who never served are so "hawkish" once they became the leadership. Clinton and Bush Jr love(ed) to crack that military wip."

Yes, exactly!

Reminds me of a nephew I've always been close to. He weighs about 100 pounds as a grown man, extremely easy going person to get along with. Just don't put him in front of a TV set during a boxing match. Suddenly he's in the Roman Collesium screaming with both thumbs down.

I agree completely with what you describe above regarding peacekeepers. There has to be a degree of detatchment.

Those night marches I described came at a strange time. I wasn't personally getting robbed or beaten but it seemed as though everyone else in the city was getting it, and that has almost the same effect.

I started out sensible and cautious but, as you say, what starts out as defensive preparedness has a way of evolving into aggressive beligerance. Preparedness for an assault turns into wanting to commit a preemptive assault! You're also right that after around a year of this nonsense my normal mindset was restored; there was suddenly a reliable balance between the real and the merely feared.

Looking back at that time the only thing that strikes me as odd is the fact I wasn't killed while looking for trouble. To go seeking it is always stupid, no matter how tough you are there's always someone who can destroy you. When talking about a local population in the millions finding someone you can't handle becomes a certainty. The weird thing is the whole time that was going on I was completely aware of that fact. I never considered myself the toughest guy in town and to have gone out so often looking for something so ridiculous -- it was some sort of involuntary behavior.

One of things I admired about both the American and British Troops fighting in Iraq was their ability to engage in combat and kill without becoming psychotic. I hope that wasn't only for the cameras, it didn't seem to be staged and they came off all the way through as being incredibly professional. Having the additional responsibility to treat the local population not only decently but as friends being liberated made it a truly remarkable sight. I feel near contempt for the hard core cynics who describe all this as some sort of performance; it's pretty hard to be theatrical with weapons firing in the distance.

[ May 29, 2003, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

In regards to the fake electrically shock --- That doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It means absolutely nothing. Everybody in the World could have been Nazis, but there would also be anti-Nazis. Why? They would find somebody to hate or they wouldn't be Nazis.

In regards to the student Jail Experiment --- I saw that on T.V. Another joke, roll-playing. They were getting paid or something for 3-days, just a game. Yeah, a couple of guys cried like little girls & wanted to go home early. I know golfers like that. In reality, when prisoners act out of line, I bet the same things happen, the guards beat their ass to get them back in the cage. What's next? We shouldn't have cages either? What should we do with all these psychos? O.J., Wesley Allen Dodd, Ted Bundy, Scott Peterson, The Snipers, Menendez Brothers, Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nicholes. Put in a cage or fry 'em or both.

In regards to Lord of Flies --- I don't believe that either. I remember a HUGE High School argument broke out over that one in English class. I told the teacher this book is crap that kids would not turn into savages, making up some stupid Monster in a cave which was really some dead parachute dude. She told me without adults, Yes, kids would go nuts. I disagree, I would have made that Island a Paradise, Swiss Family Robinson style. It would depend on having some resources, I wouldn't want that piece of crap Island of Tom Hank's in CastAway.

Rambo 3:16

[JerseyJohn]

Rambo --

". . .there would also be anti-Nazis. Why? They would find somebody to hate or they wouldn't be Nazis."

Agreed. It's a false doctrine based upon hatred. When they were done with the Jews, Gypsies and Slavs they'd have turned on people with black hair and brown eyes. The two important things were self-love and hatred of everything unlike yourself. Some great doctrine.

Also, Germany was full of people who hated the nazis but could do nothing about them other than become martyrs, a path they chose not to follow.

Many Americans deride the existence of German anti-nazis, but there are many cases on record of the nazis having executed their own people for working against them. There are also many cases where Jews and Allied airmen were assisted and hidden by German civilians.

I don't think Lord of the Flies was meant to imply children are inherintly evil or anything along those lines. I think it was meant to portray civilization degenerating into anarchy. What most people miss is the sailors rescuing the boys at the end of the book are themselves involved in a tribal war.

To me that idea is what basically happened in Baghdad. Take away rules and order, create a vacuum, and everthing degenerates into anarchy.

Our views on those experiments differ. Which doesn't matter, we're each entitled to see things our own way. I've been an employee for most of my life and saw over and over how people become corrupted by authority and how others below them react to authority figures. Even now, working for myself, I have to admit my boss is a tyranical bastard! :eek:

[ May 29, 2003, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

The Jail Experiment --- The Guards did nothing wrong, there was no problem with their behavior. Keep the felons under control in Prison.

Favorite Prison Movies:

1) Stalog 17

2) Great Escape

3) Bridge on the River Kwai

4) Escape From Alcatraz

5) ShawShank

6) JailHouse Rock

7) Lock Up

8) Tango & Cash

9) Escape From Alcatraz

10) The Rock

11) Pappion

12) First Episode of Hogan's Hereos

[JerseyJohn]

All fine flicks. Of the twelve I especially like Papillon, Bridge on the River Kwai, The Great Escape and Stalag 17.

[ May 29, 2003, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[J P Wagner]

No prison movie list is complete without BRUTE FORCE and BIRDMAN FROM ALCATRAZ...two of Lancasters finest....

[JerseyJohn]

Don't remember Brute Force, I'll have to see it again sometime. Agreed about Birdman . . .. A really great movie.

[J P Wagner]

Here's a little review I cut from Amazon, JJ, that may jog your memory or pique your interest:

BRUTE FORCE

Jules Dassin's brooding, brutal drama about a prison wound to the breaking point by a sadistic captain of the guards is a classic film noir as well as one of the greatest prison films ever made. Burt Lancaster (in only his third film but already commanding the screen like a pro) is the savvy prison veteran whose clashes with Hume Cronyn (the ambitious guard with a god complex) land him first in solitary then in the claustrophobic drain pipe, a muddy, airless work detail that slowly kills every man assigned to it. With the help of his cellmate buddies and former gangland boss Charles Bickford he hatches a plan to break out, but Cronyn has his own plans for the unbreakable prisoner. Dassin's oppressive prison is thick with atmosphere: cavernous buildings and halls that echo with the footsteps of inmates and the clanking of bars, overcrowded cells that seem to close in on the men, a busy machine shop where the film's most memorable scene takes place--the ruthless assassination of a stoolie in a pounding metal press. Cinematographer William Daniels, a master of Hollywood's soft-focus glamour, creates a harsh, hard-edged look for the film, softened only by looming shadows. A sense of doom hovers over everything, culminating in an explosive finale, but the barbaric, brutish violence hangs in the air long after the film is over.

[ May 29, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]