Whats wrong with my WASP?

[TheBlackHand]

I've just recently started playing online. I'm a vet of about ten battles. I've never played as the Brits or Canucks until now. I'm playing a battle as the Canadians. I've had good success using German flame tracks so I figured I'd give the WASP a try.

I'm not impressed at all. In fact, I'm pi$$ed!

I have a few questions. Hopefully they're not stupid...but I'm asking anyway.

I had a platoon fighting off a German platoon in a copse of trees. He was also rushing another couple of squads across a field and into the fight. The combatants were separated enough that I figured I could move my WASP up around the copse and put the flame to his tail end & advancing troups. I was pretty certain that he didn't have any AT threats close enought to put the WASP in danger, otherwise I'd have never ordered him up. There were another couple of German platoons advancing across a field about 150-200 yards away. I figured he'd take fire from them...but not enough to knock him out or dissuade him from his orders.

Well, I gave him a Move-Hunt-Reverse order. (I may not have given the "hunt"...not sure it was available...but it's what I wanted him to do.) I figured he would move around the corner...advance about ten yards...aquire teh OBVIOUS targets...fire em up...then reverse. That didn't happen. What happened was, he moved up...waved at all the Germans...and backed off. Never fired a shot. He took fire but wasn't shocked. He just did NOTHING.

So, I was pretty pissed about that. My platoon was nearly dead. I figured I'd give the idiot WASP a clear order to fire. Maybe the Move-Reverse order screwed him up. This time I rolled him around the copse and pointed him straight at the dozens of Germans who now inhabited the trees just thirty yards ahead. So I rolled him around there. He came under some intense fire...but he never returned any. About halfway into the turn he got "shocked" and backed away.

Not feeling lucky enough for a third try I figured I'd roll him into cover and let him come to his senses. He got his act together...but now I had NO FIRE COMMAND AT ALL?! Having never actually given him a fire command, I'm wondering if it was ever there to start with...considering he failed to fire TWICE.

By this time the Germans had moved into the woods were I was hiding a platoon and the WASP. If the WASP failed me again the flank was lost. I'd already lost a flag because of this idiots failure to fire. Sure enough, here come the Germans. Sure enough, I can't target them and the AI won't target them either. At this time the WASP was not under any serious fire. The crew had one injured man. There were never any equipment malfunction messages.

The damn thing just wouldn't shoot.

I lost the flag and the flank. I'm still holding the last two flags...but who knows for how long...with no help from the WASP.

So, what gives? Is this a common thing with these WASPS? Like I said, I've never had much trouble using German flame tracks. Is there something about the WASP, is it just me, or is my game messed up?

[Beta1]

OK calm down.

First problem, if you give a wasp a move - reverse command that sexactly what it will do. It wont hang around between the two. as far as I know the wasp will not fire while moving so if you dont let it remain stationary for a bit it wont fire. A better orders sequence is to give it a move command in one turn so it arrives on station with about 15 seconds remaining in the turn. This should be time for it to fire. Next turn give it a reverse command with a bit of delay if you want it to fire some more.

Second problem a wasp has a crew of 2 (I think). One gunner one driver. If you lose a crew member the wasp can no longer fire, just like if you lose a german HT crew it loses its MG. Best thing to do is stick it somewhere safe for the rest of the game.

Wasps are lethal if used correctly. For clearing buildings you cant beat them. Just park them 50m away and you can BBQ germans all day.

[Maj. Battaglia]

Perhaps the tank of gin was empty or some cocktail olives had jammed the pipes. Those WASPs are always tippling.

Oh, you mean Wasp, bren carrier with flamethrower?

I have used them with mixed success, but they have a high mortality rate. They seemed to work best against a suppressed enemy in buildings. If you've ever seen a bren carrier up close, you know there is very little cover provided to the crew by the things. You can duck down, but anyone with an elevation advantage is going to have little problem fiting into the vehicle--it is only about a meter high.

Perhaps the crew came under fire and cowered, not able to fire, or buttoned. The game engine may not allow buttoned fire from the Wasp (like halftrack MGs); I forget if this is true. Once you lost one crewman, I think the engine would not allow any firing, again like HT MGs.

In short I'd say don't bother with them unless in a town or village and you are attacking. Keep them out of sight, then use them to finish off a pinned enemy.

[Cpl Carrot]

Correct. They won't fire if they are buttoned, or have lost a crew member. Also won't fire if they are hull down.

Cpl Carrot

[Dandelion]

Understandable frustration. But it is also very daring to use the Wasp in a tactical and fluid battle. Very daring indeed if you rested the responsibility of a flank on her performance in this alien role. She's really a siege weaponsystem. Or bunker-buster if one prefers that expression. Just like her German counterparts.

I wonder what your opponent thought of this affaire. He must have been very confused at the continued rolling to and fro of this vehicle.

Considering the drastic lack of protection:

I'm pretty amazed they used them at all.

Of course, assaulting with a flame equipped SPW system isn't a too encouraging prospect either.

Rear of a bunker or at the side of a house where you can surpress the enemy is where they will both be best deployed.

Regards

Dandelion

[TheBlackHand]

Thanks for the responses! I was half expecting to get...flamed.

Yes, it has been a very frustrating episode. My upstairs neighbor must think I'm a madman the way I scream at the PC sometimes. This WASP definately gave me a fit! (I've actually explained these late-night shout fits to my neighbor. She thinks its funny...and she probably thinks I'm funny too. In the head.)

I'm learning the hard way how to give Move, Pause, Shoot and Reverse commands in CMBO. I'm also really appreciating the new command options in CMBB.

I had a couple of platoons guarding my right flank. Obviously, I wasn't expecting much of a push from that direction...but sure enough, that's where they showed up! I moved the WASP over from the middle in order to help out. I believe that if I'd have had a German HT I wouldn't have had these problems.

I can understand how & why the WASP might've bugged out after the second assualt. Afterall, he lost his buddy. However, IMO, he should've fired on the first assault. My fault for not plotting his moves. I guess I figured the AI would be bright enough to figure it out. Doh!

I also feel that he should've provided support from his final position, despite having lost a crewman. I had him positioned to fire on the only avenue of approach that the Germans could take. In fact, I wanted to flame that avenue long before they got there in order to block the appproach. It seems to me that the AI should be able to simulate the remaining crewman taking over the trigger. Granted, the vehicle would be immobile, but it would still be a useful and deadly weapon.

Not being fully aware of how a WASP actually works, I dont' know if the latter is a legitimate possibility. Still, soldiers at war will find a way to fight. The AI should model that.

Which brings me to another question that I've asked myself. Will infantry units in CM scrounge for weapons and ammo when thiers are broken or low. Also, if a AT/MG/AT Gun team is knocked out but the weapon is intact, will other infantry units pick up the weapon and use it? If not, this SHOULD be an option written into the next game. I always enjoyed the scrounging that went on in Close Combat. In fact, there were a number of times where it saved my skin!

If the zook or MG team was killed and the enemy was bearing down, I'd move another team onto the destroyed position. Occaisionally, someone would pick up the weapon and keep firing.

[ May 09, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: TheBlackHand ]

[Dandelion]

Actually I have a faint memory of scrounging being discussed by BTS in the making of CMBO. Can't seem to recall the how's and why's tho. But as individual fallen men are not registered, and the corpse marks the spot of only the last man falling, it's reasonable to assume it was excluded for resource-management reasons, to avoid having to track every wounded, fallen and permanently broken soldier on the map. Lot's of neat ideas had to be discarded due to the fact that the computers of that time could not handle it.

Squad internal scrounging is in fact included, in the sense that the squads re-distribute ammo and weapons between the squaddies as needed. Squads will hold on to machineguns if at all possible, if the initial gunner is killed somebody else picks it up. Antitank teams will hold on to the PIAT/Schreck/Baz, even if the initial carrier takes a hit. That's a pretty neat feature, methinks.

Cool pun, about being flamed :cool:

Cheerio

Dandelion

[rogue male]

BH,

Ah yes forgot about the injured crewman in our discussions and I would say that is the source of the "vehicle is not shocked but will not fire" problem. Same thing happens with a half-track. Dandelion is correct about the squad-level scrounging, no individual scrounging unfortunately. I'd like my remaining 'schreck to run back and scrounge some additional 'schreck rounds from the gunner you killed so I could fulfill your request and put the WASP out of your misery.

On the firing problem, not sure if it was mentioned above, and if someone knows, maybe they'll chime in, but I think there is an 'arc' in front of the vehicle that will not allow the vehicle to fire if live friendlies are in the area. The woods by the house had a battered squad still alive during the better portion of two turns while this little drama was playing out. I only wish I could link a screenshot of my landsers hucking grenades at that WASP on take 2. That was damn cool. :cool:

All in all a better game than Bure, be interested to discuss the force selection (I know I didn't know what I was doing, my force is relatively vanilla) once this one is over.

dw

[Dandelion]

Ah here's the opponent.

So what did you think when the Wasp drove back and forth without firing?

Speaking frustration, I'm afraid an opponent of mine had to suffer what must have been slightly worse just the other day. He had a Baz team sneak through my lines, painstakingly crawl through bushes and avoiding not only pursuing patrols who were on his trail, but also an ambush that I at least thought really clever. For a while I thought he had turned back and slipped through to his own lines, but then he suddenly appears again, immediately behind my single StuG in the scenario. Quite a feat getting there, more than 400 meters behind my frontline! Naturally I panic and everyone nearby scramble to get him, but he is cleverly positioned and gets a full minute unmolested before being reached. I click him and Tab-1 to look over his shoulder, as he aims up the rear of my StuG at some 50 meter distance. He aims, he aims, he aims. In fact, for 40 seconds plus he aims. Then he fires, and misses by a mile. Within a few seconds, a whole platoon jumped down on him and he was history.

One rarely feels sorry for an opponent trying to defeat you, but...

Cheerio

Dandelion

[rogue male]

Hell, 'I thought this is my lucky day!' This was after I thought, '!@#$, here comes a mobile FT!'

Like you may have mentioned above these little numbers can be great in an urban environment (got worked by a WASP in 'To the Last Man'), but difficult to to maneuver in open terrain. FTs are bullet magnets in CM (I'd think in RL too, gettin' fried alive does not sound pleasant).

Map was random generator so the WASP choice could've worked out.

Bottom line I think he was targeting an area (specifically a squad, but the FT torches a greater area) that the AI still considered friendly and would not fire. Same thing if you have two squads in opposite ends of a building and you target your opponent with a tank's main gun...it won't fire a shot as long as friendlies are in the same building.

dw

[ May 09, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: rogue male ]

[Maj. Battaglia]

Regarding the Wasp firing while buttoned, actually I was incorrect before. It can fire while buttoned.

I don't know what the chances of this are (if the engine models variable chance to acquire target while buttoned), but this talk of Wasps inspired me to play a QB as the Canadians vs. AI.

On a medium map, town, I had a company of infantry, two Sextons, and the Wasp, plus 3" mortar spotter. The main attack went into Jerry's right flank, and I was at the point when it was time to start clearing him from the large heavy buildings in the town. I had laid down a smokescreen to cover the assualt from any enemy in the rear and had previously moved up the Wasp to about 100 m of the action. He was hiding behind a house, and I moved him to within range of one building, buttoned, such that at the end of the turn he'd just be in position and next turn I'd unbutton and turn on the gas. He actually got a shot off just at the end while still buttoned.

Of course, the very beginning of the next turn he got nailed by a panzerschreck in a small house 10m away that I thought had been cleared by the Sexton (two other doofi had been seen running to their mommas, so I figured no one else would be skulking in there). The infantry advancing had not quite made it into the building (a mistiming on my part, I wanted them there before the Wasp pulled up). And the psk set the building on fire, so they no longer had the cover they were assigned.

Fortunately this was just a speed bump.

[TheBlackHand]

Figures, I buy a Wasp for a battle and it won't fire a f*cking shot.

The very next battle I face two Wasp's and he practically wipes me off the map with them.

Enough to make a guy wanna take up golf.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by TheBlackHand:

Figures, I buy a Wasp for a battle and it won't fire a f*cking shot.

The very next battle I face two Wasp's and he practically wipes me off the map with them.

Enough to make a guy wanna take up golf.

Or get better at CM....

[Stoffel]

If you like canadian scenarios you should check Michaels webpage.

There are some very good ones,you should try my day of the wasp scenario,or the operation made by Eric mc Auliffe.

Lots of Wasps around

[Andreas]

Originally posted by rogue male:

All in all a better game than Bure,

What's wrong with Bure?

[TheBlackHand]

Here's proof that Wasp's do work as advertised...while under fire. The secret? Button up.

Unfortunately, I was on the wrong end of this exchange. Fortunately, I brought Panzerschrecks. Unfortunately, they didn't arrive until the town was in flames. To add insult to injury, the town began to explode as well as burn.

This battle has been a comedy of errors, but a good learning experience.

[Dandelion]

Blackhand

Losing gracefully is a quality of immensely higher nobility, and greater rarity, than that of being a gracious victor. Conversely, a man capable of losing with grace will find it so much easier to crown victories with the glory of grace and generosity of mercy.

Hat's off. I shall find inspiration in your example.

I myself fence. It teaches me certain qualities of which I am by nature in deplorable want. It teaches humility, patience and perhaps most of all the quality of forgiving oneself for errs committed. I find that CMBO teaches the same qualities to those who wish to learn.

And quite apparently, provides possibility for teaching for those who already own such qualities.

Might I endeavour to solicit your acceptance of a challenge? You may of course choose scenario and side. If so, I shall use the adress given in your profile to send you mine.

Regards

Dandelion

[TheBlackHand]

Dandelion, I appreciate the offer...but I'm swearing off CM for awhile. These last few battles have just been real morale killers.

If/when I decide to give it another shot I'll look you up.

Here's a final screen of the above battle.

ELEVEN of my occupied buildings were destroyed by a single 4.5 inch mortar battery and a couple of tanks. I guess Murphy's Law was in full effect. I gave up. I give up.

[rogue male]

Oh hell, where to begin.

BlackHand:

All in all, WASP SNAFU aside, our second match has been alot of fun. It will likely end up closer than my original estimation. I'm hoping you'll want to go again. I'm in no way suggesting I'm a skilled player, but have learned alot from getting my lunch handed to me by people I do considered skilled. I'll miss the side chatter that goes along with our turn swapping.

Dandelion:

If you are game I'll take up your challenge, always like to meet new players. I turned on my profile's e-mailing function. Or just post here, if interested, and we can get a game going. I'm a CMBO only type.

Andreas:

Damn, my favorite scenario designer has called me out. Maus will vouch for me on this, I love your stuff, am playing TF Butler and 49th Recce at the moment and just finished a back to back side swap of possibly the premier CMBO scenario-Into the East. (Now I'll get an earful from Justin I'm sure, DHK is still excellent, DHK is still excellent) Buttered up enough? On Bure, I attacked as the Brits and once I was past his MG gauntlet, dropped a couple of fortuitous PIAT shots on his armor in town, it was over. I never fired a shot with my armor and in fact they barely got to the town before accepting BH's surrender. Ever trying to remain humble I know I'm not that good and after playing a second game vs BH, he's not that bad, so concluded maybe the play balance was somewhat out of whack.

Micheal:

Do you really need to waste the key strokes on that kind of comment? For cryin' out loud, at least put a smiley on it or just move on the next thread you're interested in reading. :mad:

rm

[ May 16, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: rogue male ]

[Andreas]

Cough - thanks Rogue Male.

I look forward to the reviews on the Depot.

[TheBlackHand]

RM, yep, the WASP war has turned into a genuine fight. Given my initial losses I wasn't expecting to hold...but the PIAT's really saved the day. I'm happy to get out of that one with anything close to a draw.

I'm learning that sound tactis aren't all there is to playing CM well. You need to know the game limitations and be able to anticipate AI behavior (or not). Many of these lessons can only be learned the hard way. Of course, it helps to have a little luck on your side.

Something I seem to have little of.

Dandelion, anyone who's played me will tell you that I'm anything but graceful. I'm a whiny beotch much of the time, but this is only because I think...or type...out loud. My opponents are the graceful one's for putting up with me! Nevertheless, I'm no sore loser & I've yet to meet one. I respect a well played game and an honest player, regardless of whether I do well or not. So far everyone I've played has been "graceful", as you say. This is a good thing.

Then again, I havent played Dorosh yet. (Nor will I ever.)

Bure was...er...not fun. The equipment given to the Germans might have been historically correct, but it was wayy out of place for that map. What were the trucks for, if not to merely get in the way? A Jagdpanzer? On a tiny, closed-in, urban map? That thing could hardly turn a half-circle before the barrel was knocking over buildings, or taking a PIAT up the butt. Ehhh...? I just didn't get it, but nobody ever said war was supposed to be "fun"?

[TheBlackHand]

I just went through an interesting excercise with the wasp.

Rene, the zerstorer of my buildings in those last couple of screens, sent me a scenario involving a wasp and a couple of German squads.

Here's a screenshot to give an idea of the setup.

Here's a cut & paste of our Email.

I made a little test of a tactic you might want to use in the future. It solves your ->move-pause and scout->retreat problem somehow.

You give a wasp a move order let's say in turn 1 then in turn 2 you tell thewasp to retreat to a certain point. The wasp will move to the end location of the move command, scout and sometimes even fire (with a regular wasp 13 secs, the command delay) and then retreat.

This was what I had wanted to do during the game in question. I assumed the wasp would fire as it switched gears to reverse. This didn't happen. Appearently it won't happen. I've run through the scenario you've set up here a number of times. I've given the wasp a move order to the bottom of the hill, well within range of the Germans, followed by a reverse order back up the hill. I never gave a target order, assuming the target was obvious. It WAS obvious. However, the wasp never would fire. I DO NOT understand this. Where is the AI?

A wasp doesn't need to be stopped in order to fire, does it? I'm almost certain I've seen them fire on the move. Then again, it seems an unlikely idea. Still, why won't a wasp stop to fire on an obvious target, while carrying out it's move orders? I don't know.

If I drive the wasp to the crest of the hill & park it in full veiw of the German squad IT WILL NOT FIRE. The wasp just sits there. At first I thought this might be a LOS problem or an inability to bring the weapon to bear from the angle of the hill. Not so. When I order the wasp to fire from the same position, it fires.

When I give the wasp a target order along with a series of move orders. THEN the wasp will fire...but only if the target is within sight.

My wasps will not fire on their own initiative.

This presents a problem.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=026980

During the battle that provoked this discussion I KNEW the location that I wanted the wasp to fire on. It was the trees to the rear of the German position. Well out of the way of my troops who were also in the area. From the wasps starting point, the area that I wanted him to fire on was out of LOS. Nevertheless, it was under observation by a command team. I KNEW that's where the Germans were..and that's where they were reinforcing. If I were shouting in the wasp's ear I would've told him to open up on the rear of the long axis of trees to his direct front once he crested the hill and rounded the trees. The game should allow for me to make those sorts of orders. The game should allow for mid-move pause orders. The manual states that this is dissallowed due to the "unrealistic" and "micro-management" aspect. OK, so I assume the AI will take up the slack by firing on an obvious, targetable threat. As I recall, that last tidbit is ALSO in the manual.

It is unrealistic that I cannot give my men orders that I would certainly have given on the field. It is unrealistic that a weapon as decisive as the wasp wouldn't fire when and where it was needed most. A pause order, in between the move and reverse orders would have allowed my wasp to obtain the target that I WANTED him to fire on. The target that I would have ORDERED him to fire on...regardless of whether it was under direct LOS at the time. We KNEW thats where the Germans were. That's WHERE I wanted the wasp to "shoot & scoot".

Based on the scenario's that you've sent along, it appears that a wasp won't fire on it's own initiative during a move order...unless he's been given a target.

So, am I just way out on a limb here? Is it just my bad luck? Am I asking too much? Should I take up golf? Right now I'm ready to take a 9 iron to the CM CD...if not the entire PC!

[ May 19, 2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: TheBlackHand ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by TheBlackHand:

Bure was...er...not fun. The equipment given to the Germans might have been historically correct, but it was wayy out of place for that map. What were the trucks for, if not to merely get in the way? A Jagdpanzer? On a tiny, closed-in, urban map? That thing could hardly turn a half-circle before the barrel was knocking over buildings, or taking a PIAT up the butt. Ehhh...? I just didn't get it, but nobody ever said war was supposed to be "fun"?

The British report by a company commander speaks of a 'Tiger' being there. Panzerlehr did not have any Tigers with them though. The best guess that a French or Belgian researcher could come up with then was a Jagdpanther (big, 88 gun, pretty hard to take out). That's why it was there.

[Dandelion]

Speaking of Wasps...

At Rethem, april 10th, the 1/5 Welch attacked German positions using, among other units, two Wasps. These were part of a five carrier column trying to rush the bridge at Rethem (as the infantry got stuck on the fields outside town).

In the battle resulting, one Wasp fired at a German officer changing positions, drenching him completely in fuel. For reasons unexplained, ignition failed, and the young officer stopped, staring at his heavily polluted uniform.

Ignition did not fail on all attempts. The Wasps were able to take out three PaK 40's before meeting a drastic end in the hail of panzerfausts. It seems the crews perished when the vehicle was blown by fausts. At least these two.

I'm working on an operation depicting the Rethem battle, and found this episode in the War Diary of 1/5 Welch. Thought Black Hand would want to hear it

Cheerio

Dandelion

[rogue male]

The best guess that a French or Belgian researcher could come up with then was a Jagdpanther (big, 88 gun, pretty hard to take out).

Andreas,

OT, much to the BlackHand's chagrin the Jagdpanther succumbed to a frontal PIAT shot at about 125m. Fortunes of war I suppose.

RM

[ May 19, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: rogue male ]