The never discussed issue: How to defend Russia?

[jon_j_rambo]

What's interesting is nobody ever talks about how to defend Russia. There has been very little brought up on it in the past relative to gambits, tech, historical, new mods, etc. With the new bid system default of 1:8, Russia has some options.

Lets say a "standard game" has happened:

1) France falls June 1940

2) Italy joins, has Egypt, pinging Malta

3) Germany has Poland, LC, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, & Vichey

4) All the axis minors have joined

5) UK has 3-airs fleets, all the Royal Navy & equal air tech as Germany. USA is trickling on the map.

6) Barbarossa has started, Germany has trashed the Russian front line of armies and is coming to the Motherland with a balanced attack.

Now it's your turn as Russia & you have ~2400-2800 to spend. Germany has Jets+12. What do you do?

I will:

1) Put 2-chits into Jets

2) Put 1-chit into anti-Tank, maybe buy another

3) Move Russia air to the middle of the map, out of German range, until I "figure out" what I want to do. Lets assume the Germans have ships blocking the greater Finnish area, so no invasion plans of Finland can be considered.

4) Operand any Armies up front if alive & possible

....that's standard for most people? Now what?Stuff a billion corps all over the place? Build tanks+11 in your cities? Build 2-3 new tanks & put the originally ones with them behind your own lines? Do you give up some land for free? Be stubborn upfront, allowing corps to get mauled? Buy air & tech?

Lets talk Russia-D,

Rambo

[ August 27, 2003, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Oak]

It seems like the first priority has to be to establish a defensive line against Germany that is:

1) as strong and secure as possible, while

2) including as many resources as possible.

[JerseyJohn]

"General Rambo

Glad you got into this; against experienced players I often get into trouble on both sides in Russia.

As the Axis I generally start it too late, around Spring 1942, becuase it takes a long time for me to conquer Norway and Sweden. Another problem I'm getting lately is the USSR % is jumping too high on me in the Spring of 1941, despite having a Polish garrison of 2-3 while in France, then increasing it to 4 around Feb. of 41. Yet I keep having Russian readiness of 80-85% as soon as Romania and Hungary join and before I'm ready to hit the place.

As the Soviets I usually do okay till the front reaches Smolensk, after that Leningrad falls too soon and, even though I'm holding in Rostov and sometimes in Sevastopol as well, I'm suddenly pinned back against Moscow and losing it before the Siberian Reserve can come into play.

I feel as though this is a Dear Abbey letter and I should sign it, Yours, -- Bewildered.

Anyhow, I'm hoping a few things are covered that would help with those problems. There are probably other players who have difficulty in those same areas.

[pzgndr]

nobody ever talks about how to defend Russia

Doesn't the Strategy Guide have about SIX PAGES of discussion?? Now, perhaps Dan Fenton and I didn't address every nook and cranny about defending Russia, nor did we address any strategies relating to the bid system. But the fundamentals have been addressed and are applicable to most any game.

However, Rambo offers some valuable tips for how to compete when playing with the bid system. He is the expert in that area and not I. There are various techniques and game tactics for each of the many scenarios, settings, options and bids that players should consider. So yet again I'll offer the caveat that the Strategy Guide is just a guide, not a how-to-win manual covering every situation.

[Curry]

One thing that is really frustrating to me about this game is the Siberian transfer. Since most players (all but the newest players) know the Siberian forces come if you threaten Moscow everyone avoids it. If there is an SC2 this NEEDS to be changed to make the Siberian transfer come between one two four turns after the Axis have taken Kiev or Minsk. This would make the game be more historical but more important for the game give the USSR a much better chance of defending Mother Russia.

With the transfer in play in the current form it seems the battle for Russia becomes a battle for the south. As the Russian I think you need to defend the Dneper river line even if you have to jam it full of corps. And as Axis get over that river and force Russia back to the next river line even in the first drive.

This is a great thread and I would hope the more expereince players would give us their insights.

[Terif]

Like Bill Macon already said, there exists no strategy that can be used in every situation. It depends on the overall situation and how weak/strong Axis and western Allies (UK/USA) are.

But here some possible strategies as Russia (offensive strategies are especially with the mpp from a bid possible, but also after some turns if Axis are weak in Russia):

- Use natural defence lines behind rivers or marshes.

First defence line Riga-Minsk behind Dvina.

In the south: if Axis has not much ground units, then you can try to build a line Kiev-Odessa. If they are strong then behind Dnjepr: Smolensk-Kharkov-Sevastopol.

- Siberian transfer is triggered if Axis moves towards Vologda, Moskov, Voronezh, Stalingrad or Rostov. It depends on both sides strengths (if Russia has too many units, then even if Moskov is attacked, siberians dont come) and how many units move how close to one of the above mentioned cities. Moskov has the biggest range (units count for siberians within 4 hexes around it) other cities have shorter range.

- you can use the siberian triggers for your advantage as Russia: When Minsk and Smolensk have fallen, you dont need to build a line between Leningrad and Moskov. Just leave it free. If Axis moves into this gap, then siberians arrive. If not, you can use your units/mpps better at another place and you have a much smaller front.

- for defence lines use cheap corps. They are easy to replace. A tank can cause some damage to Axis, but is as easy destroyed as a corps, but much more expensive. Russia cant afford to loose too many mpps (or their defence lines will break soon and Axis can cut off Russian forces), Axis can.

- if you have enough mpp have some Hq supported armies/tanks - some hexes behind the front - ready to kill enemy broke through units.

- TAKE CARE OF YOUR HQ´S !

Dont move them to close to the front if the enemy has some airfleets ready to kill them. Dont forget Long Range developements ! Hqs support units 5 hexes away, your cities provide them with supply, so no need to move your Hqs to the front.

Also dont forget to use terrain to protect your Hqs: placed in a city (forest is also better than open terrain) or best in a mountain, they are nearly indestructable.

If you entrench your Hqs in the right terrain or keep them out of enemy sigthing range, you dont have a problem with airfleets killing your Hqs like some players complain. If a Hq is in a mountain or city, the enemy needs luck and up to 10 !! airfleets to be able to kill it, with bad luck even much more... So if he attacks your Hq be happy: he gets some cheap experience, but with his air he could have killed you some much more important units elsewhere...

And if he really has 10+ airfleets at the east front, then stay away with your Hqs and dont forget to attack in the west, since he has no air left for defence there. If Axis can afford so much air AND enough ground units AND a defence in the west, then Allies did a lot wrong in the past and have lost .

It is simply an mpp problem: if Axis buy a lot of airfleets then they have weak ground forces and ground forces are much more efficient in killing other ground units than airfleets. Usually Axis cant afford more than 7-9 airfleets in total. If they have more, than Allies should also have a lot or they did something wrong and have lost anyway, no matter if Axis buy air or other things with their mpp...(little contribution to the "too powerful" airfleet discussion ).

Some offensive strategies:

- first target is Finland. Either taken by an amphibious invasion or attacked from Leningrad, supported by russian air. If Germany has jet advantage, then Russia has to be fast or to destroy Helsinki port . If the port is below 5, then Axis cant send reinforcements or a Hq and Finland will fall within 2-3 turns when attacked from land.

- If Russia is strong and can compete with Axis air, then Sweden is an option.

- If Russia attacks Turkey, they have a connection to Africa and can conquer Iraq and Beirut. In the first wave, Istanbul should be taken, or at least some units have to land east of the city to cut off Turkey from the rest of Europe. If Axis is able to establish a land connection so that they can operate units directly to the turkish capital and Iraq, then Russia has lost the turkish war, so take care...

Now a last advice:

Always have a look at the overall situation. In SC there are two fronts: east (Russia) and west (UK/USA). Usually one of them is in the defence, one in the offence. The player has to recognice where he has to defend against Axis and where he can attack. Axis decide at which front they use their mpp/units, but Allies can influence this decission by their actions (especially their actions BEFORE Barbarossa) .

If Axis attack strong in the east, they are weak in the west. Therefore Russia should defend and USA/UK attack and win the war.

If Axis attacks England or leaves much in the west, then they are weak in the east. Therefore Russia can go in the offensive while UK/USA defend/try to keep Axis units in the west.

[ August 27, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Leopard]

Defense of Russia is simple. Negotiate a non-agression pact with this German fellow named Ribbentrop, and then announce to your citizens that you have a paper which contains the signature of Herr Hitler. You may even end up with a slice of Eastern Poland.

A simple solution, and the end of your worries.

[Leopard]

More seriously, this is a great topic and Rambo and Terif are the right people to discuss it. Good defensive ideas here.

[Desert Dave]

Very obviously, this defense begins... right from the beginning.

Meaning, you have to play Britain very very well. You really have to hold Egypt, if not conquer Libya.

1) You should so decimate Italian Fleet that they would not be likely to interfere with any Med operations, whether counter-attacks in Greece, or invasions of Turkey, etc.

2) You would have much better chance in Russia if Brits would take Iraq.

Which implies that you are taking great advantage of the "round the Cape" movement.

Then you might Op a Brit HQ and an army or two up to relieve the pressure on Caucusus... Russia now can concentrate on the Middle (... agreeing with Terif that the North does not require much more than a sentry or two).

3) Attack weak or exposed units (.... most especially the unsupported Minors) wherever and OFTEN, in order to gain experience. Then, somehow, insure that those newly experienced units do not get annihilated in a counter blow.

4) Give ground so that Germany will be "lured" into tripping the Siberian wire... it is the rare player who will just ignore completely OPEN spaces, and/or cities.

5) Finally, try to kill the experienced German units, one by one by one, even if it means the total loss one or a few of those (... hoarded) Tank Groups or Air Fleets.

After all, you are mostly waiting for your Tech to improve. Speaking of which, 6) go for Jets and AT. (... or, sometimes I will fight the war without any AFs... AT ALL!... at least, until you have achieved at least one level of superiority).

When Germany has to build new units to keep the momentum going in Russia, you are much better off.

Well, take all that with a handful of salt, since I have also found it very daunting to keep Russia in the war until the end-game.

[Curry]

Terif, thanks for the info on Russia. Great great stuff.

One point or question though. You said that you can use the Siberian tranfer to the Russian advantage and I understand your thinking. However, the Axis player also understands that. so although you dont have to defend between Leningrade and Moscow, the Axis also doesnt even have to hold that front since often the RUssian has nothing there. It think its to the Russian advantage to have a large broad front. This was the case in the real war.

[Terif]

Curry:

A broad front is an advantage for the attacker. If Russia is in the defence they need a small front. If Russia is in the offence they prefer a broad front, but in this situation they will never get Siberians anyway, since they attack .

[JerseyJohn]

Terif & Immer

Great insights. I tend to feel the same way about the Siberian Transfer as Curry. I've had games as the Allies where those units were nowhere till it was too late. Perhaps it was my imagination, but in many of them the Germans had taken Riga and Leningrad and were pushing close to Rostov and the transfer still hadn't taken place.

It has been suggested a few times that the Allies should be played with Siberian Transfer Already Made and I'm beginning to agree with that view.

[Amona]

JerseyJohn,

the option in the editor "Siberian transfer already made" doesnt help at all.

It doesnt mean you get the siberian units at start with Russia. It just means they NEVER come.

I think this option in the editor was intended to be used in scenarios that start 1942 or later, when historically the transfer already took place.

[Shaka of Carthage]

I was afraid of that. In effect, the "Siberians already transferred", is a way of overriding whatever option you take for the Siberian Transfer. Thats too bad. If it would transfer the Siberians up front, Iron Ranger would have his solution.

[JerseyJohn]

Amona

Thanks for the clarification, originally that's what I thought it meant, after seeing it mentioned here as an immedediate addition I figured I was wrong. But actually, it makes more sense to have the option of bypassing it.

Shaka

Agreed, it would have been a good equalizer. A three way choice would be good:

(A) Normal Siberian Transfer.

( Transfer on Turn Two.

© No Siberian Transfer.

[Bill101]

Just a few of my thoughts...

My preferences for research at the beginning are:

anti-tank

anti-aircraft

jets

I believe that the anti-aircraft research is unconventional, but I like it because it leads to higher Luftwaffe casualties when they are attacking your cities, thus making things slightly easier for your own air force. It is also an improvement that doesn't make things more expensive.

As to strategy, sacrifice Corps defending cities to gain time for your better units to gather strength further back.

Only defend western Russia strongly if the Axis player is very weak in the east. Be prepared to give up ground, and don't think that the loss of Moscow and Leningrad is necessarily decisive - it isn't. Never give up hope.

Launch counter-attacks with care, as unless they are carried out in very favourable circumstances and are also limited in scope then they can easily go wrong. Until you have HQs you are generally at a disadvantage in mobile warfare.

Above all - have fun! I love the eastern front in this game.

Bill

[jon_j_rambo]

Billy --- anti-air, interesting...thanks for the post.

[ August 28, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]