US Technology is King: back then & now, SC/SC-2 needs to reflect it

[jon_j_rambo]

There's no doubt about it, the United States is King of technologies, economy, & the management of cash. SC needs to correctly reflect this. What people fail to realize, it takes intelligence to design, make, distribute, & manage 'things'.

"What were you thinking? Haven't you heard of Ford, & General Motors? You stupid Nazi." - Webster yelling at an overrated Bunta officer in the classic mini-series, Band of Brothers.

The overrated Fritz Generals & Commanders were very good at surrounded sleeping farmers with tanks, then beating up little old ladies...then to realize that a real opponent will headcrack the loser-race. Meanwhile, the United States leadership took advantage of brains (true leadership) & took over the seas/skies against Germany/Japan. The United States needs to be accurately protrayed in SC & SC-2. It's not like our population & industry was that great at first, it took leadership! Detroit & Pittsburg just didn't happen because we have resources. Russia has more resources then us.

Next, the fighting spirit of the US foot soldier is better than the Fritz! Just because Wolfgang looked cool in uniform in France, remember, that's France. Gerry had the homefield advantage, we had to travel to the otherside of the planet to take care of business.

The Axis generals were dumb, the US generals need better ratings: Ike, Patton, Bradley, etc.

The United States is a joke in SC, it needs fixed! Where's my bombers? Where's my fighters? Ships? Badass soldiers? Paratroops?

Give me a break with how great Germany was. They were overrated then & overrated now.

[ August 15, 2005, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Comrade Trapp]

The German Army was superior in many respects to the US Army. Patton is overrated, Bradly was a much better general.

And last but not least, its Pittsburgh, not Pittsburg.

[jon_j_rambo]

There were more than just Germans dying for the Axis cause. Europe was full of Nazis, don't anybody kid you. I wouldn't be surprised if those Titanium Knights are helping Al Quacka. I've seen Band of Brothers, so don't tell me the Germans weren't Nazis.

Axis soldiers dead by national origin:

Germans 3,350,000

Japs 1,900,000

Russian 408,000

Romanian 300,000

Italians 200,000

Finns 55,000

Poles 35,000

French 19,500

Belgium 11,000

Netherlands 10,000

Estonia 5,000

Danes 4,000

Norweigian 3,000

Bulgarians 3,000

Indian 2,600

Greek 2,000

Sweden 45

These are just those who died as soldiers for the Buntas. Doesn't even consider the civilian help, support, & cash.

*** Interesting, look at all the Russians who died for Hitler, the same amount which died for the USA. Remember, the point is to make the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. --- General George S. Patton

[ August 15, 2005, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[jon_j_rambo]

At the beginning of World War II, the population of Germany was 73,000,000 while the USA's population was 131,000,000. Wow! There was alot of Buntas back then compared to the USA.

[Liam]

John,

USA is underrated by far, agreed. Initially we had jack. Though we had lots of cash, we had lots of industry and we had some of the best designs for aircraft in the world.

P-51, P-38, P-47 all well outclassed anything Germany ever created. The FW-190 is the only thing they and was never created in vast numbers as our own aircraft. Mostly the ole trusty 109 is reflected which would be a level 0 or level 1 AC in SC Terms. Meanwhile the P38 which would rock the scene as early as '42 or '43 would be a LR 5 Fighter and at least Level2 jet fighter capability. By the time the Mustang came on the scene that would be at least Jets3, at least!

That was it for the Reich as far as air superiority. Now the Brits relied heavily on their trusty Spitfires, not upgrading very much like the Germans, and would've lagged far behind. Never achieving much LR ability. Though their Lancasters would've been hitting Berlin in 1939, in this game it never happens!

To top all this off, German industry is too strong, Russian and American Industry is too weak. US would have level 3 or 4 IT, Reds would have a tad bit less.. They hadn't developed the assembly line. All this has been discussed greatly though.

Also, though you must admit U-Boats do not much dent the North Atlantic as they had Historically as in late 1940 many considered the Battle of the Atlantic nearly over and the British Isles starving to death because their American friends couldn't outproduce along with themselves what the Gerries were sinking to the bottom...

There is a lot of qualities, and a lot of aspects that this game misses out on. That a true historian or afishionado<sp? of WW2 could incorporate. I'd love to see it personally, accurate portrayals of what the real thing was more like. For instance you can't flank in N.Africa, which is awful, you have to bring in Fighters to do the job. SO many similar flaws though. Perhaps SC2 will better reflect the real scenery of WW2 though and the actual Power of each nation...

The USA, never really got into the action, had she, she would've been pretty deadly in 1944. By 1945 she had the best Military in the World, in 1941 the Germans had the best. What had happened was the Germans were slowly thinned out, they're experienced officer corp, their experienced soldats were martyr'd fighting Joe Stalin on the Eastern Front when they should've sought an armistice or gone for a knockout blow in the early days.

Germany was a small nation, she needed to strike fast, and hard...Knockout everybody all at once, I do not think Hitler was tactically wrong in that particular decision. However she took on more than she could chew and in the end was knocked a deadly blow... They probably lost 10% of their population to bombings, murder, casualties, etc... A higher price than any other nation aside from USSR.

As far as Reds fighting for Germans, that's a new one. Must've been Ukrainians or Baltic State Nations. They're practically German.. That was once part of the Prussian Empire..

One tends to forget that Germany at one time was a MASSIVE nation. She was an Empire, but 2 wars and a lot of bickering over real estate shrunk her into a little Modest european state.

Now on the other hand, as far as AntiTank weapons and Tanks are concerned. We were outclassed, just not outproduced. We used the Reds theory, Numerical advantage over our Foes and of course we had the fuel and supplies to run this equipment properly. Plus Hitler had an obsession with Bigger and Badder, which in fact cost more effective compact Armor and fuel efficient would've been better for his nation considering the constraints he was facing!

He would've been better creating defensive weapons in 1942 and 1943 anticipating our arrival and the Reds offensives.. That may have bought him some time, if he inflicted enough casualties he may have actually got a peace settlement seeing we left Joe in the Cold all the way until June of '44. Just the fact is Italy falling so quickly looked bad for the Nazi cause and the huge losses at Stalingrad and Kursk. They were on their way out after Kursk that was that.. That was the emergence of a New Power on the Battlefield, Red Army proved Herself. She probably could've beat our butts at that point. Though our Aircraft and Heavy bombers would wreak havoc upon her from afar... Reds always lacked a good airforce took them a long long time to catch up.. When she did though she was formidable...

Interesting enough all this war debate fun, but I'd rather see it incorporated in SC2. The real truth about Technology and Equipment on all sides. The real situations, the real historical footing.. In SC after Fall of France things go Ahistorical right off.

[hellraiser]

And it should be ahistorical - after all we're not hitler, goering, etc ... we have our own ideas on how to wage war, where to strike, where to defend, etc

Like Rambo put it - too bad for germany they didn't have fieldmarshall Yoda, back in the 40s, working on the cookie cutter

[Sombra]

Rambo have you been to to Detroit? Not much left of the big three....

Problem is for me not that the US is to weak. It is simply that Germany can get to way strong through the aquisition of the minors. I think you see it quite well in the Fall Blau scenario which is quite balanced.

Rambo, please stop making propaganda for this nation of farmers and landthiefs.

[hellraiser]

But we have an editor!!! Why, instead of bitching about USA being not accurately represented, blah, blah, don't u edit the scenario data? Give USA 10000 mpps, give them lvl 5 bombers/LR (and get some cool new bitmap for that bombers, they kinda look gay, USA had way more beautiful bombers ) and stop crying about balancing the game. That's why Mr. HC gave us the editor - so some nationalist weirdo can modify stuff to his own liking and beat the **** out of the dorky AI

Leaving the joke aside, IMHO you can tweak the game as much as u like via the editor but the ideea is to find a suitable and fair gameplay. If 1/5/30 is not enough, up the bid or just give the allies some extra techs, whatever.

When first SC was designed, I seriously doubt Hubert was aware of the cookie cutter or some other particular strategies folks are employing these days which make the game appear unhistorical or just plain unbalanced. So he did what was the best for SC- provided us with this editor. The editor made it possible for SC to be still played after so much time from its original release.

[Liam]

The editor definitely allows for historical appeal. Though noone uses it religiously.

And, don't doubt the economic power of the USA. I once heard that Atlanta had more industrial strength than the entire Continent of Europe back in the early 90s

[hellraiser]

maybe the old Atlantis

[jon_j_rambo]

@SomeGerman --- Dude, propaganda? What are you talking about? Have a Coke & a smile.

-Legend

[Tagwyn]

JJR: Beware the political crap!! Moon will ban you and smile. Tag

[jon_j_rambo]

@Tagwyn --- There's no politics in the thread. I brought up the fact in the game of SC the United States is not properly represented in technology, forces, & cash. Have you even played SC? Is there something political about Coke? The topic is US technology needs to be properly represented in SC & SC-2.

Public link to a cool website about the populations & alot more cool stuff!

http://www.worldwar-2.net/casualties/world-war-2-casualties-index.htm

[Stendhal]

When I play the game against -admittedly- the AI, the Western Allies and the Soviets meet on the Rhine, so it may be that the US in the game is weak. But had the US been as strong as you make them, should they not have met the Reds on the Vistula historically ?

[Blashy]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

I've seen Band of Brothers

Band of Brothers, made by USA AND for entertainement purposes.

So don't expect an unbiased accurate view. Their goal was to entertain and show the US side of things.

It was a great series, I loved it but it's not a history lesson.

And I guess you beleive everything you hear on FOX news?

[Blashy]

BTW, try my 65% USA/USSR idea.

USA can do D-Day by Aug-Sept 41 having accumulated 4000+ mpps.

While Germany does not get away with taking every European country without any consequences.

[jon_j_rambo]

Ramping the USA cash might be better. Also a more realistic Atlantic.

[Blashy]

Well USA @ 70-75% (revised from 65%) does that, it gives you over a year to prepare for D-Day, that is over 4000mpps. It also means you can have some troops start to slowly be involved in the conflict leading up to D-Day (Atlantic and Plains in UK).

Much more preferable than just dumping cash on them for when they join.