Curry Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Question for all those willing to respond. Is it poor sportsmanship to attack the USA as axis before the UK falls? Here is the setting. It's a good game with me and another player. I wont tell you which side I am, but its been a good game and has been closely battled all along. It's July 1943. Axis controls everything but Turkey and is slowing making progress against the USSR. The Axis line has Lenigrad, is close to Moscow, in front of Kharkov and finally starting to make some progress on the Karkov/souther front. Sevastapol, the D-river line is still held by the Russians. The Russians started with a good bonus of MPP's and have been very hard to push back. In the west the Axis has complete control of the Atlantic with subs and a strong Level 3 Italian navy. Germany also has 3 to 4 Carriers which are either near Lenigrad or they move out to the North sea to attack the UK. The western Allies has US armies and Air in the UK. The UK air was strong but a recent air battle between the axis western air fleet and the UK air reduced both western air fleets. The Axis sent three corps to the USA coast to endanger a very weakly defended USA. Forcing the Allied player to respond by sending air and army forces quickly back to the US. The allied player thinks this is "poor sportsmanship" to attack/invade the US before the UK falls. What do you think? Is it? Remember its July 1943 and the Axis has control of the Atlantic [ December 09, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Curry ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 In the hundreds of instances where my Allied position resembled the one described, I always thought it was unsporting -- and protested vigorously to my adversaries while they administered the coups de grace! Not really, I say it's only a game and you go for the quickest kill possible. In forum threads I've said innumerable times that I don't feel the Western Hemisphere should even be on the map and completely beyond Axis invasion reach! But in actual play you use any means available; the Axis taking DC is no less sporting than the Americans taking Berlin. [ December 09, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I'm sure a lot of players, myself included, have carried out a landing on either Canada or the USA before the UK has fallen. I think that if you land in the USA in a serious competition game then fine, it's up to you. If it's a friendly and you are playing it more for fun then it's better not to. That aside, I've been thinking that a house rule to the effect that landings on Canada and the USA aren't allowed unless both UK and USSR have fallen would help balance the game a little in favour of the allied player. Currently the Canadian Corps must be the least used unit in the whole game - the allies can't use it AND the Canadian army for fear of an Axis landing in Canada. Or another way round it, thus releasing up both Canadian units for service in Europe, would be to give the UK one extra Cruiser, with it's mission being to guard the Canadian (and later the US) coasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 A programming solution, for the Canadian Corps issue, would be to 1. Allow the UK to build units in Canada (I always thought it strange that the UK could not train new troops in Canada) 2. Allow Allied units to operate between Canada and the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by Edwin P.: A programming solution, for the Canadian Corps issue, would be to 1. Allow the UK to build units in Canada (I always thought it strange that the UK could not train new troops in Canada) 2. Allow Allied units to operate between Canada and the US. When I mentioned that in SC2 every country should have their own units and MPP. Hubert had this comment: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 He obviously likes you, most of the time my comments are totally ignored! Okay, not true, but I didn't start getting smileys for a long time. Hell, I didn't even start getting smileys till I began acting civil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les the Sarge 9-1 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 This is a dumb question, if you leave your butt open you should get it booted. The Allies in the example are toast. If the Germans can land then they should. Hey this isn't a re enactment of history eh, its a game. Would it be fair to ask the Germans to not invade the US in a game of Axis and Allies? What's the point of being the Germans if you are not allowed to win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Good idea if it works IMHO. But to avoid this discussion try to take England before france. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 It is certainly not poor sportsmanship. This is a war and each side is looking to win. The Allies need to defend themselves. If they don't, then the Axis are certainly within their right to take it. Why should the USA be any different from any other Allied territory that the Axis is attacking?? If it is sporting to attack Egypt, Gibralter, Malta, the USSR and the UK then why shouldn't the USA be fair game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Keep in mind that there are undoubtedly off-map ground and air units [like in the Midwest or California] which would come rapidly to the rescue if the East Coast was invaded. Plus Hubert doesn't model either a transport/LC fleet or supply routes across the ocean [subject to interdiction, natch]. The US is at a severe disadvantage because of the tiny chunk of coastline that represents American soil in the game. John DiFool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendly Fire Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi gang, I am the other player in this game. I am not really that upset here, and don't want to sound like a whiner. In this particular game In any case it is a moot point, because Curry has pretty much (fair and square) won the game in any case. I just think it is unrealistic for the reasons provided in the previous post. Units in the USA can't even operate into to Canada! (living in Canada I find this pretty weird) In my other games I am currently playing we have a house rule (asked for by my opponents actually) that invasion of Canada/USA is not allowed until UK falls. I thought this was more a less a standard house rule but I'm new to the scene. I'll just make sure this rule is in place in my future games and leave it at that. Curry, I haven't had a chance to look at your latest turn, but I will open it and get back to you. No hard feelings dude, I have enjoyed our game! Congrats on a well executed cookie cutter. I should have been more aggressive somewhere along the line... [ December 10, 2003, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Friendly Fire ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curry Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 Friendly, No problem. It's been a good fight and you are still fighting well in the USSR. I thought you had me stopped for awhile. I was just wondering if more players felt like it was unsportman because I never felt it was. I agree with you that it is unrealistic but I have also learned from playing numerous players to keep something to defend the USA or Canada. I have learned the hard way as I left Canada or the USA unguarded and have a player take it or take several US cities with corps and do so much earlier than mid 1943. It forces the allies to have a garrison. I can see that a house rule that the Axis cannot land in Canada or USA until the UK and/or the USSR falls may be a good thing. The reason being is that would help the Allies so they wouldnt have to garrison those nations and have a bit more to fight with against the stronger axis. Not a bad idea although I have never played with such a house rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Or limiting the amphib range, will accomplish the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curry Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigleth Pilisar Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I think the US is relatively easy to defend against an invasion which is what keeps players away most of the time. In the example given, if the Axis control the Atlantic seas then it makes sense that the US not dump everyone from North America to defend the UK, and if they do, the smart thing is for the Axis to attack the US. You can't abandon a weak front and then expect the opposition not to exploit it. Players should be allowed to attack the US any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Come on, you lost control of the Atlantic, and then you think it's cheap that the Axis is not allowed to exploit it's victory? Half the reason, if not more, for winning the battle of the Atlantic as the Axis IS because it opens the possibility of an extended front, in this case benefiting Germany. First of all, you should NEVER lose the atlantic to subs. If he starts investing in his navy, you make sure you destroy it asap. Besides, the Allies have better forces and air screening on both sides of the Atlantic. The Axis player would really have to divert MPP's to sustain a war on the sea, and that's what you want. Less against Russia, right? I think invading Canada, US, is generally a waste of time and mpp's for the Axis. Transports can be spotted and sunk relatively easily by a patrolling RN and US fleet. As the Axis, it's a real gamble for me to even waste 1 corp to do such an action. HOWEVER, if I am winning (have won) the battle of the Atlantic, then I DEFINITELY would invade the USA prior to UK/Russia's fall. It's more or less your fault that he has this opportunity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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