notes from a guy who played the demo

[aka_tom_w]

I did not play the game but my friend made these notes:

There are some serious flaws in this game , it gets boring very quickly.

If someone spent the time and effort on a World in Flames computer version it would be the greatest.

Flaws .. computer has no intellegence factor at all in Fog of War

...as the German I have conquered USA and Britain and have been in Moscow

all prior to May 1941

... as the allied I have sunk the entire German navy with French ships, and

been adjacent to Berlin by May '41

other peeves

1. must include Japan

2. Italy can not be activated prior to German proximity to Paris ( allows

allied free hand )

( they should be wide open and their actions reflected in neutrality shifts

in USA and Russia )

3. The allies can strip their entire world of all units and simply dump

them into France,

this combined with the French fleet sailing into the Baltic and sinking the

German navy means that Germany

will be stalemated on the Western front in attempts to take Paris

its an ok time waster ..

-my buddy the PC Guy

any comments

We grew up playing Third Reich and World In Flames and a few other WW II Grand Strategy games so by now we have a good idea of all the tricks to win the war and both sides

-tom w

[Briggs]

No Japan? Please not the whole "European Front" idea behind this game...

[Hubert Cater]

I did not play the game but my friend made these notes

Actually many of these points have been addressed and updated for the Gold Demo as the original was a Beta. The full list of changes will be included in the Gold Demo as a 'readme file' and include the following major updates:

Changes for Gold Demo

*PBEM Additions*

- added play-by-email replay

- added a 'Disable Undo' option (this can be toggled at any time, but is locked in for Hotseat/PBEM)

*Sound Fix*

- added an 'SC.ini' file in the 'Strategic Command Demo' folder. This will allow gamers that were experienceing sound problems to adjust for sound interruption, should eliminate long waits during button clicks etc.

*High Refresh Rate Option*

- also in the 'SC.ini' file you will be able to set a high refresh rate if you know your system can support it

*Empty Text Box Fix*

- pop up text boxes that were showing blanks on some systems should now show their information

*Gamey Strategy Tweaks*

- abandoning allied positions in the Med may peak Italian interest into joining the war if they have not already done so

- early Axis invasion of Baltic States prior to Soviet annexation will be much riskier in terms of political fallout with Moscow. Initial political shock will be the same, but now there will be a continued increase in Soviet war readiness

- USA and Italy will start with their full income if sneak attacked and units in the capital will have an entrenchment value = 3. This does not make this strategy impossible but simply much riskier

- air attacks against rocket and naval units as well as against fortified units (i.e. Maginot) have been intellegently adjusted to limit AI baiting

- added SU unit to Riga for the start of Barbarossa

- added a few units to the 1940 SU setup

- adjusted the SU transfer of Siberian Troops to an open period instead of only when SU existence is threatened during the winter months. (This one I really thought about, but I think it would be reasonable since I don't think the original transfer was made due to weather but rather because of the demands of the military situation at the time)

*General Fixes/Tweaks*

- extended save game file names to 38 characters from 20

- fixed 'next unit' bug when France was targeting units on the Maginot

- fixed dissapearing Allied units in Vichy when France surrenders, basically a message pops up and says they surrender

- Axis units do now finally and properly move to nearest adjacent city when France surrenders, so if Italian unit was in Africa moving towards Algiers they will move back to Tripolitania if that city is still friendly etc.

- renamed 'Strausbourg' to Strasbourg

- renamed 'Massachusettes' to 'Massachusettes'

- decreased damages during naval Surprised movements in FoW

- decreased damages slightly for naval combat (a decrease by 1 point for all attack and defence table values)

- added info for saved AI games, basically so you can tell what difficulty and computer bonuses these games were set at

- increased max surface raiding in the Atlantic to 40 MPP to include the value of Liverpool

- increased individual sub raiding amount slightly in North Atlantic

- adjusted reduced spotting to now properly include Air Fleets, Bombers and Rocket Attachments when spotting subs, basically spotting value - 1

- reduced disbanding value to about 50% less

- added an updated 'resource_strength_sprite' with an indicator for when strengths are < 5, this will help to realize that some actions may be limited wrt these resources, i.e. no transporting or operations etc.

- added a 'ScoreCard' for when you either defeat or have been defeated, keeps track of total resources plunders, units destroyed as well as an early victory bonus or late victory penalty

- jet sounds now kick in at level 4 or higher

- added units to Turkey and Sweden and increased entrenchment for Swiss units

- fixed disappearing ships when you declare war on a country and have blocked their typical start locations

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Aloid]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

I did not play the game but my friend made these notes:

<snip>

Tom, you should play it. I would also suggest that your friend play as the allies with the Axis getting full bonuses to AI.

Finally, this "was" a beta demo, and as Hubert has stated, things have changed. You're peers have been given a hand in helping shape the game, to make it better.

Give it a go your self... better yet, buy it for the $25 it's more than worth.

Enjoy!

Aloid

[Aloid]

P.S. Tom,

Both you and your friend should buy it and play each other... see who's the gamey bastard of the both of you!

Aloid

[windstarz]

A lot of games can get boring playing the computer Ai. I can guarantee your friend didnt do any of the above things after giving the computer bonuses. Anotherwords a higher difficulty rating. Why doesnt he pbem and then critique the game. I have played many and have never seen any of those results.

[KNac]

say me a single game about grand strategy that had a good AI. thisone is the one which has the best AI (probably).

some points are ok, but as Hubert said a lot has been already fixed.

also when someone critiquize something must do it in a educated manner and in constructive manner.

however if it´s a time waster don´t buy it.

juts my thoughts

[pzgndr]

We grew up playing Third Reich and World In Flames

Which version of Third Reich? 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, or 4th Ed? Or Advanced Third Reich, or the revised A3R? Which version of WiF? Which add-on modules of WiF? The point is these games have evolved over the years with a LOT of revisions and tweaking based on extensive game play. I'm also a 3R/A3R player and have offered my share of "suggestions" for SC, but I'll step up and defend it.

SC is a fundamentally different game system based more on the Panzer General style than classic boardgames. So it may take some time to work out a few wrinkles to acheive optimum "historical accuracy", either by offering advanced game options or revising the game for SC2. The map could be larger to permit maneuver in North Africa and the North Sea, things like Murmansk convoys and redeployments around South Africa added to the game, etc., etc., etc. Hubert's done with the Gold version for now, but it's not over and we can expect revisions and enhancements in the years to come.

What we do have right now is a game that provides numerous options for replayability. Even the 1 year demo is addictive and fun to play. The AI is competent - even surprising at times, FOW is great, and the random entries based on politics is interesting. Research adds a colorful dimension to the game. And the scenario editor should prove to be fun to use to create numerous what-ifs. The bottom line is that SC is a very good game now, and sure to become a classic over the years as it improves with age. Hang on for the ride! :cool:

[husky65]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

"I did not play the game but my friend made these notes:"

Then perhaps it would be best if your friend had posted this?

"There are some serious flaws in this game , it gets boring very quickly."

Its a time limited Beta demo, you pillock - its not meant to entertain you forever.

"If someone spent the time and effort on a World in Flames computer version it would be the greatest."

You mean like the computer version of WiF that has been in the works for about 3-4 years and is only at the "no AI but has some potential" stage?

"Flaws .. computer has no intellegence factor at all in Fog of War"

You mean like the way you have a range at which you can detect units, but not know their strength until you are closer?

"...as the German I have conquered USA and Britain and have been in Moscow

all prior to May 1941

... as the allied I have sunk the entire German navy with French ships, and

been adjacent to Berlin by May '41"

That would be the beta part of the demo - its not finished, I also note that your friend doesn't give any details as to the game settings used.

"1. must include Japan"

If there is one thing I've always said its, 'European Theater WW2 games should include Japan...' - I always felt Battle of Britain flights sims really needed Zekes too.

"2. Italy can not be activated prior to German proximity to Paris ( allows

allied free hand )

( they should be wide open and their actions reflected in neutrality shifts

in USA and Russia )"

Statements without supporting evidence do not constitute proof - why should they be wide open etc?

"3. The allies can strip their entire world of all units and simply dump

them into France,

this combined with the French fleet sailing into the Baltic and sinking the

German navy means that Germany

will be stalemated on the Western front in attempts to take Paris"

Beta status demo, remember.

"its an ok time waster .."

as are you.

[Desert Dave]

Nice try! aka_tom_w -- with your hiding-behind-the-skirts criticism -- LOL! -- but, we know better.

Download the demo, play awhile, and just maybe, in good time, you'll know better too!

[aka_tom_w]

Thanks for all your replies

The reason I have not played it is my main computer is a Mac (no Mac Version of SC) so I need to visit my friend or get a PC .

anyway I have encouraged him to post here.

He is NOT new to wargameing, but new to the idea of reading and posting on forums so he might be a litte imtimidated by the process (if he is reading this that might egg him on )

anyway

I personally have been somewhat soured on WWII grand Strategy games (board games) as both my good friends ALWAYS nominated me to be Russian and then promptly proceeded to pull their now famous Hilter Youth (!) impressions on me and overwhelm and overrun my largely useless and hapless hords of conscript infantry with the glee only a megalomanic teenage destromanic could understand. Anyway, my personal feelings aside, I am much happier playing Combat Mission, the smaller scale games like Panzer Elite, also interest me but again it only runs on a PC.

I can't wait for CMBB (the Eastern From Combat Mission) and I plan to Take the Russian and get some long sought revenge! (And Thats a Challenge my wargaming Friend!)

Thanks again for all your posts!

-tom w

[ July 19, 2002, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I did not play the game but my friend made these notes

Actually many of these points have been addressed and updated for the Gold Demo as the original was a Beta. The full list of changes will be included in the Gold Demo as a 'readme file' and include the following major updates:

Changes for Gold Demo

*PBEM Additions*

- added play-by-email replay

- added a 'Disable Undo' option (this can be toggled at any time, but is locked in for Hotseat/PBEM)

*Sound Fix*

- added an 'SC.ini' file in the 'Strategic Command Demo' folder. This will allow gamers that were experienceing sound problems to adjust for sound interruption, should eliminate long waits during button clicks etc.

*High Refresh Rate Option*

- also in the 'SC.ini' file you will be able to set a high refresh rate if you know your system can support it

*Empty Text Box Fix*

- pop up text boxes that were showing blanks on some systems should now show their information

*Gamey Strategy Tweaks*

- abandoning allied positions in the Med may peak Italian interest into joining the war if they have not already done so

- early Axis invasion of Baltic States prior to Soviet annexation will be much riskier in terms of political fallout with Moscow. Initial political shock will be the same, but now there will be a continued increase in Soviet war readiness

- USA and Italy will start with their full income if sneak attacked and units in the capital will have an entrenchment value = 3. This does not make this strategy impossible but simply much riskier

- air attacks against rocket and naval units as well as against fortified units (i.e. Maginot) have been intellegently adjusted to limit AI baiting

- added SU unit to Riga for the start of Barbarossa

- added a few units to the 1940 SU setup

- adjusted the SU transfer of Siberian Troops to an open period instead of only when SU existence is threatened during the winter months. (This one I really thought about, but I think it would be reasonable since I don't think the original transfer was made due to weather but rather because of the demands of the military situation at the time)

*General Fixes/Tweaks*

- extended save game file names to 38 characters from 20

- fixed 'next unit' bug when France was targeting units on the Maginot

- fixed dissapearing Allied units in Vichy when France surrenders, basically a message pops up and says they surrender

- Axis units do now finally and properly move to nearest adjacent city when France surrenders, so if Italian unit was in Africa moving towards Algiers they will move back to Tripolitania if that city is still friendly etc.

- renamed 'Strausbourg' to Strasbourg

- renamed 'Massachusettes' to 'Massachusettes'

- decreased damages during naval Surprised movements in FoW

- decreased damages slightly for naval combat (a decrease by 1 point for all attack and defence table values)

- added info for saved AI games, basically so you can tell what difficulty and computer bonuses these games were set at

- increased max surface raiding in the Atlantic to 40 MPP to include the value of Liverpool

- increased individual sub raiding amount slightly in North Atlantic

- adjusted reduced spotting to now properly include Air Fleets, Bombers and Rocket Attachments when spotting subs, basically spotting value - 1

- reduced disbanding value to about 50% less

- added an updated 'resource_strength_sprite' with an indicator for when strengths are < 5, this will help to realize that some actions may be limited wrt these resources, i.e. no transporting or operations etc.

- added a 'ScoreCard' for when you either defeat or have been defeated, keeps track of total resources plunders, units destroyed as well as an early victory bonus or late victory penalty

- jet sounds now kick in at level 4 or higher

- added units to Turkey and Sweden and increased entrenchment for Swiss units

- fixed disappearing ships when you declare war on a country and have blocked their typical start locations

Hope this helps,

Hubert</font>

[Aloid]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Thanks for all your replies

The reason I have not played it is my main computer is a Mac (no Mac Version of SC) so I need to visit my friend or get a PC .

<snip>

Ah the truth be told!! Super-Mac Gamer strikes again!

Can't take it when a PC only game, which you are secretly wishing you could play, is waved in your face... heh! j/k you Tom

Hint... There are some nice and cheap PCs out there...

Enjoy!

Aloid

[Stormhouse]

Where is gold version of the demo, i just downloaded the beta again.

[Malichite]

You mentioned wanting a World in Flames computer edition and I believe that ADG currently has some beta versions available to download. I gave it a try and my first conclusion wasn't my cup of tea. Yeah it has the whole world, but it didn't have the fit and finish that SC offers.

I grew up with playing 3rd Reich, Clash of Steel, High Command, and board games like Axis and Allies. I must admit that Strategic Command is a much needed addition to genre of computer grand strategy. While I agree that it is not perfect, it is a job well done.

I will make one cheap jab though, since I was a bit annoyed with the Gold Demo. Since when is the removal of a feature considered a big security patch? The security fault was with the encoding of the save games, so you remove that feature all together. LOL. <Grumble> Yeah I am the type that hates to watch a fated invasion fall to some bad die rolls (i.e. Attacker: 0 Defender: 3, yet you take 2 and the target is untouched. Before you know it, the invasion is doomed and you are running for the Rhein) In such cases, I admit a might "accidentally" hit that LOAD button and replay history once again. LOL. Already snagged my Preorder and I am eagerly awaiting its release.

-Mali

[Norse]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

I did not play the game but... <snip>

...as the German I have conquered USA and Britain and have been in Moscow

all prior to May 1941

You are a troll! I DARE you to prove us that you are able to do this...

~Norse~

[Briggs]

He probably the kind of guy that heaps all the advantages to his side, then triumphs when eliminating an enemy that doesn't even spend his MPP's.

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

I hope I am not being overly intrusive in a thread for a line of thinking on a game that I have played the demo for only once.

But here is my thoughts....

I am a long term player of A3R (and everything that led up to it being A3R) and I have marginal experience with WiF. I have played the Third Reich Computer game as well.

Its not enough to just copy a board game and leave it at that normally.

The AI in computer TR was well, only one way to say, brain dead. It wasn't even a good way to waste time.

Have not seen the computerised version of WiF, but I have no reason to suspect it has sole custody of the only AI in existence to actually think.

I did not see any one reeeeally dumb decision of the SC AI that was questionable beyond its single minded dedication to killing Maginot forces that would not have survived at any rate when Paris fell.

I won't myself be anxiously waiting for some sort of mental giant AI to be made for the game though. Last time I checked the "artificial" in the term AI was still quite artificial, this game or any other computer game.

I am pleased (quite pleased) that a game "looking" like A3R exists. I am not expecting the software to play "brilliantly" though. That would be expecting a bit much from the reality that is computerised thinking.

We call it artificial "intelligence", but all it really is, is the computer making mathematical choices with no regard to actual worth. It's not actually thinking.

Thinking would be making a dumb move and waiting to see if the other thinking opponent fell for the bait. I don't know, but I suspect, that AI's are not yet currently able to bluff.

I have played Axis n Allies and had fun, but without humans for all the sides, its really not worth getting excited. I am happy about getting SC, but without humans for all the sides, I am not planning on getting to excited.

Won't prevent me from getting the game though.

If it looks just like A3R, plays just like A3R, I will be happy.

If I have to play both sides solo(like I commonly have to do with the board game), I won't be overly miffed.

Be nice to have one board game that is easy to set up, easy to play, and not require a lot of long term table space. I won't mind it if SC does that for me.

Only thing that will ruin it for me, is when I tell such and such a unit to attach such and such a unit, and the games mechanics won't let it resolve realistically.

Currently I am very impressed with the feel of the interface. My first game was played completely blind eh.

I had no experience with the game and was able to play it without knowing a thing about commanding the units (might have done better with practice I suppose).

[pzgndr]

We call it artificial "intelligence", but all it really is, is the computer making mathematical choices with no regard to actual worth. It's not actually thinking.

Units and resources should be weighted, so the AI is probably considering worth. Even humans reduce thinking to mathematical choices to some degree. Some choices are obviously good deals, some are risks, and some are outright gambles. This seems to be working well in SC for individual turns. What's the situation right now, what are the relative forces, and what is the best thing to do right now?

It's less clear how well the AI thinks ahead in SC and decides truly strategic issues. Case in point is when France surrenders. The Axis AI knows that to win it has to go after both London and Moscow, but can't do both and certainly can't do either right away. It has to plan and execute either a Sealion or a Barbarossa. And it has other options - Spain, Yugoslavia, Sweden, etc. For both the AI and for humans, there should be a high level decision making process that targets the next long term objectives (at least a primary and secondary), then stages adequate forces over the next several turns, and finally executes a "plan" with a major offensive, which may include DOW and invasion. The operational decision making for the individual turn takes over at that point.

This high-level decision making process is probably an area for improvement in most games, not just SC. Long term objectives can also change rapidly based on a changing situation, like Sealion plans could be aborted if Britain redeploys forces from the Med or the US enters early. The decision to shift forces from Sealion to Barbarossa would then look like Sealion was just a bluff.

So look-aheads for the AI should be the key. Like chess, "smarter" AIs look ahead farther than the "dumber" AIs, since you can't otherwise "change" the game rules. If this gets perfected for SC2, it would be preferable to see variable AI competencies rather than just simple MPP/experience bonuses.

[Norse]

<snipp>

[ July 20, 2002, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[Randell Daigre]

I don't know how far ahead the AI in SC looks, but I categorically can not get the AI to actually excute a Sea Lion or a Barbarossa. I have gone so far as to declare war on all the minors (even Switzerland and Ireland) to remove all possible distractions. I then proceeded to disband every unit I could and had the Royal Navy commit suicide by attacking ports as far from Britain as possible (Med Fleet and Atlantic Fleet). All of this was done with FOW off, so the computer could see I wasn't hiding anything, and the highest level of difficulty set. The AI response was a massive buildup on the Russian border that never quite turned into an invasion.

[pzgndr]

I don't know how far ahead the AI in SC looks, but I categorically can not get the AI to actually excute a Sea Lion or a Barbarossa.

This is a terribly disturbing statement if true. I assume the Axis AI in the full game gets around to attacking France and then Russia eventually. And that the Allies take appropriate actions to invade Italy and France. Perhaps HBB could provide more insight into AI behaviour and what to expect, before we find out for ourselves soon enough.

I also have not seen ANY agressive strategic actions in the demo by any country other than Russia declaring war early, and that's prompted by a random entry condition and not an AI decision. Every time there's an Allied coup in Yugoslavia, the Germans appear ready to invade but they never do this early on their own. Italy never seems to do anything, yet Greece and Yugoslavia are viable opportunites. And Britain sits still if Germany executes Barbarossa early, even if France is defended with only a corps. How does one program an AI to be aggressive and take risks? I don't know, but it looks like there's some room for improvement.

We may just be seeing very conservative AI behaviour during the 1-year demo, so I don't want to judge too harshly. Hopefully we'll see better long-term performance in the full game. Perhaps the AI knows something we don't?

[Guest Mike]

I've seen the computer invade Yugoslavia prior to the allied coup - last night in fact.

however I suggest if you want to tweak the computer player up a bit then give it better experience and advantages amd see what happens!!

the point of playing at "Novice" level is that the computer doesn't do those things.

[Hubert Cater]

Perhaps the AI knows something we don't?

It does

Hubert