Kill France #2!?

[Supreme Axis]

I smoosh Poland, Turn west for the French. By then these top notch players who have yet to share their secrets. Have invaded the lowlands and are short of having an HQ. 2 british air fleets on the coast and really with the MPP plunder from the lowlands France can afford to defend with British backup. The French quickly get experience and then it's a stalemate... I usually buy a 4th fighter with my income and relocate about 3-5 turns into the game for my invasion. Germany is rather broke without lowland and Danish money. It's often that the Brit fleet comes and devours the Germans in baltic and the presence is nerveracking!!!!! Come pass some tip along to counter this strategy.

[Jollyguy]

For the Axis there is an available counter to the Dutch gambit. It just requires the Axis to put his thinking cap on...and think.

IMO, against a skilled Axis opponent the Dutch gambit is an Allied disaster. Yes, it does stretch out the fall of France, but on the backend the Allies really pay for it.

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by Jollyguy:

It just requires the Axis to put his thinking cap on...and think.

Lol a pun... Concentrate

:cool:

[Supreme Axis]

You are with holding information! I see, it's kewl. I have to learn for myself! I don't think I'm going to give France the time of day next game. I'm declaring war before he has a chance to get in position.

[SeaWolf_48]

I had that obscure goofy idiotic dumb ahistoric imbecillic feeble foolish blockheaded senario happen to me. Waltero took Belgium before I could get there with the Wehrmacht, and it became a foregone conclusion.

Can you imagine in real history France invading Belgium in Jan 1940. The US would have sided with Germany. Even if France would have taken Belgium (no Democracy has ever attacked another Democracy in history) I doubt if that would have held up or stopped Germany anyway. There combined arms tactics, Air, Tank, Mobile Infantry still would have smashed any Anglo-French resistance in Belgium. But not in SC.

[Tuomas Seijavuori]

Originally posted by SeaWolf_48:

Can you imagine in real history France invading Belgium in Jan 1940.

In SC I can. In SC Finland happily declares war to USSSR every time even when there has been no winter war; France may find Albany an attractive target in May 1940 and Sweden can stubbornly hold out the onslought of the German war machine. Anything can happen in this game. That's why it is so much fun. Who knows what if...?

[SeaWolf_48]

Good Mister Alphabet

Maybe we could have senarios that are historic, and senarios that are open.

In my reading of history I'm flabbergasted, that Finland would have even fought against the USSR at all. What is the difference in populations between the two. 50 to 1 or something?

However, Finland did attack those commie bastards, after the nazis pulled their the big wammo on Uncle Joe on June 22.

Very gutsy I would say!

[Supreme Axis]

Problem is the French take Low countries out in blitz style. Oh, I hate this strategy! I am going to learn to punish the guy that uses it! It may take a few more losses

[David Brown]

SeaWolf_48 wrote:

Can you imagine in real history France invading Belgium in Jan 1940. The US would have sided with Germany. Even if France would have taken Belgium (no Democracy has ever attacked another Democracy in history) I doubt if that would have held up or stopped Germany anyway.

A couple of comments: first, I suppose this depends on your definition of 'Democracy'. In 1914 France, Britain, and Germany all had representative democracy (certainly far more than Russia), and yet still went to war. If you consider the Confederacy to have been a legitimate democracy (and its political structures were similar to those of the North -- i.e. white males were allowed to vote) then the American Civil War can be seen as a war between democracies.

As to whether France would invade Belgium, it's not outside the realm of possibility, if France thought such an invasion gave it a significant military advantage over Germany. The difference between the German invasion of Belgium and a possible French one is that a French invasion would be a temporary one, forced by circumstances as opposed to an invasion of conquest. At least that's certainly the spin France would have put on it.

Don't forget as well that Britain mined Norwegian territorial waters without Norwegian permission and before Germany attacked Norway (normally cause for a declaration of war) and was prepared to land troops in Norway -- except that Germany beat them by a day. Again, Britain intended to do so in order to gain a military advantage over Germany. It is not clear that Norway would have put up the same resistance to a British invasion that they did to a German one.

As far as the US siding with Germany in either of the above cases -- not likely. First, the US was still highly isolationist -- it took an actual attack on US soil by the Japanese to get the US to join the war. Secondly, Roosevelt despised Hitler. He knew what Hitler stood for, and at worst would have blasted the Allied powers in speeches and in writing, while recognizing the 'necessity' of such moves behind the scenes. Remember that the British, as disgusted as they were by the Soviet Union's unprovoked attack on Finland in 1940, did not declare war on the Soviet Union, and when Russia was attacked by Germany in 1941 allied with her. The Winter War was conveniently forgotten.

Would the Allies attacking neutral countries be a 'nice' thing to do? Of course not. Would it be outside the realm of possibility? No. The Allies had to make a lot of hard decisions and do some difficult things in order to win the war.

Lastly, would France's taking of Belgium have held up the German invasion? Here I agree completely -- probably not.

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by Supreme Axis:

Problem is the French take Low countries out in blitz style. Oh, I hate this strategy! I am going to learn to punish the guy that uses it! It may take a few more losses

To stop a determined allied Gambit u must declare by turn 2.

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by David Brown:

Lastly, would France's taking of Belgium have held up the German invasion? Here I agree completely -- probably not.

I agree with your entire comment up to this point I do believe the plan if actuated was to continue the maginot linr through Belguim now if that did happen well?

Here is some good reading.

A week before the target date,

however, a German plane strayed off its course and was forced down in Belgium.

On the two officers aboard the Belgians found orders for the air phase of

the invasion. This prompted an alarm of even greater proportions than before,

and some French forces began moving toward their assigned sectors along the

Belgian border.

http://gi.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_4.html

[SpitfireMarkX]

You up to continuing our game Hueristic?

[JerseyJohn]

David Brown -- SeaWolf -- Hueristic

Very interesting thread, the topic never dies.

I don't think the United States would have been pushed toward the Axis, but I think the already isolationist population would have withdrawn even further into it's shell.

Some British and French generals thought the Dyle Plan would produce an impenetrable line going right up to Holland, others, principally the British, were worried that so much reliance upon a river defense would shatter if the river were breached and attacking spearheads managed to fan out behind their forward positions. The fear was they could be too easily cut off by a German dash to the channel, which is what happened in the actual event. Some British generals worried about it so much that they were working on a withdrawl to the sea mentality even be Manstein's Ardennes plan had been implemented.

I agree with the view that, historically, nothing would have saved the British and French from defeat in 1940. They were too outclassed by the Germans and, with a few exceptions, their generals didn't have a clue about blitzkrieg tactics. What's worse, I think they themselves realized this when they saw Poland being crushed in 20 days.

In the game that extended line seems to slow things down and I've heard good arguments about it from both sides.

The answer might be to inflict a double diplomatic penalty for the first Allied invasion of a neutral and a triple penalty for the second and subsequent invasions.

That way an Allied player invades the Low Countries, Norway, Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Iraq can look forward to an American entry around 1944 or 45.

[ January 03, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Jollyguy]

Supreme Axis;

Here's how you deal with the Allied Dutch Gambit when your the Axis;

1) Hit Poland hard on turn 1. Rambo says don't use air, but I disagree. Play around with the opening moves, as there's a way to take Warsaw on the first turn, about four out of five times. (About one in ten times Poland surrenders on the first turn!) Sometimes you may have to operate a corp to Koninsberg to cover. I favor not declaring war on Denmark the first turn, but you could. Regardless, move your Essen corp to the Danish border.

2) On turn 2 operate your three strongest and most experienced armies west to the Low Countries, and also operate both tanks, and your hqs as close to your air as possible. Position all three airfleets so they can hit either Brussels and Copenhagen. Declare war on Denmark, hit it with your two capital ships and the corp and an airfleet if available, but it would be more important to reinforce your airfleets if need be (and if mpps are available), than hit Copenhagen, as you'll need it for Brussels. Position your sub a couple hexes above Copenhagen in that one hex that the Allies can only attack with one ship at a time, to delay Allied probes.

Operating your units West costs money, but early in the game speed is much more important than mpps. The costs to operate the units are well worth it. You'll get it back at the other end by taking cities faster, exacting more damage against the Allies and keeping them off balance, and sustaining less damage yourself.

Use the remaining armies and corps in Poland to chip away at the surviving Polish units.

3) Your ready to deal with the Dutch gambit. If the Allies declare war on turn 2, there's probably better than a 2/3 chance that you'll hold Brussels, as your air is backed up by HQs, while the Allies aren't, and the Allies certainly need air to take Brussels. If Brussels survives the Allied attack, move the Brussels corp out, and your best army in. Get an HQ as close to your army as possible, but not on the coast. Hit the hex to the south east of Brussels with your air and best land units. This will cause you some damage to you air, but will cost the Allies more. If the Allies counterattack your German army in Brussels the next turn, there's almost no chance they'll get you out, because you have an HQ. Plus, they'll weaken themselves more than the damage they incur.

If Brussels doesn't survive the initial Allied attack on turn two, counterattack Brussels the next turn.

If the Allies don't declare war on the Low Countries on turn two, then you must do it turn three. YOU MUST MOVE FAST AS THE GERMANS!

4) Now you'll have to slog it out with the Allies. If Denmark hasn't fallen, take it out, as you'll need the mpps to reinforce. Chip away at the Allies. If the Allies move their carriers in, and you're doing okay on the ground, I may hit them, but only if the ground action is going good. It may be worth taking France out a couple turns later to get those carriers, or severaly damage them, as the British will either never replace them, or take multiple, multiple turns to repair them. That's a game by game decision.

Also, other than the carriers, in general ignore the Allied capital ships along the French coast and entering the Baltic. It is more important to take France fast. If the Allies come into the Baltic in force, don't be afraid to retreat all the way back to stay out of their way. If the Allies are determined, make them pay with surprise contacts if possible. If the Allies have ships on the coast of France, try to stay away from them with your land units, so you don't sustain bombardment damage. If the Allies are timid with their navy, you may want to try to sneak yours down the coast of France, under cover of air.

And that brings up another point. I favor retreating my Atlantic subs, making the Allies come after them. That keeps more Allied ships off your back longer.

If the Allies move their carriers into the Baltic while your in France, I would probably ignore them. Taking France is more important. Plus, if you take France fast enough, you may be able to move you air north, and hit his ships trying to get back to the North Sea.

As Rambo says, it's important to keep an eye on opportunities that may arise, but only if they're too important to pass up. Otherwise stick to the important strategic goals. For the Germans this is to get through the Low Countries and France fast, so all but the most tempting opportunities would be secondary.

Good Luck

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by Brad Tennant:

You up to continuing our game Hueristic?

O i got tied up on Hicom seems different than what i remeber. i think it's a newer version. i don't remeber hotseat option. I didn't really feel like a match today anyway. lol day of rest. Tomorrow maybe. I'll have my Im on when i'm avail.

[ January 03, 2003, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: Hueristic ]

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by Jollyguy:

3) Your ready to deal with the Dutch gambit. If the Allies declare war on turn 2, there's probably better than a 2/3 chance that you'll hold Brussels,

I've been forced to take brussels on turn 2 about 4 times and have a 100% conquest ratio. But i agree with most of what u say. Specially since u taght me the correct axis opening. Which i agree with to this day with one exception.

[SeaWolf_48]

Reply to David Brown:

If you have ever read history about Germany and its Government before WWI, I doubt if anyone would side with you about Kaiser Wilhelm II, The Last German Emperor, and his Monarchy being a Democracy. He was over thrown by Hindenberg to set up a Dictatorship. I'll try not to offened too many people here, but Germany has never known true democracy until it was forced upon them after we kicked there butts in WWII. What they had before Hitler was a joke, even Adolf knew that the Weimar Gov. would crumble if ever challenged.

Ya that's a great example, the American Civil War, the classic struggle of Two Great Democracies (exsisting in the same country at the same time). That was a Civil War Lame-o!

My comment about the US siding with Gemany was a facetious remark. Churchill and Roosevelt had not become friends until the fall of France, and became great friend after the signing of the Atlantic Charter in Aug of 41. Long after Belgium had be overrun by the Goose stepping, Kraut eating, Pollock raping, napalm sucking Nazis. But I know that America would alway side with another democracy, and not a Fascist Gov. like Adolf Hitlers.

Now back to Belgium. As others have written about in this topic, if France or Britain attack Belgium, then there should be a penalty upon the US giving aid to Britain and France. The US would have gone to war after Peril Harbor anyway. The US should have more MPP's so they could share them with Britain and the USSR, the way it was in history. This way in SC convoys to England and the Soviet Union would have some importance. Both countries relied upon receiving shipments of vital resources to keep their war efforts strong. The game needs a way of sharing MPP's. Germany gave Italy steel and food thrughout the war to keep her in the struggle. The US gave all of her allies Billions of Dollars worth of aid to keep them in the war. So there it is. The two biggest industrial countries giving aid (MPP's)to their allies. A way to reward and to penalize countries.

David I had to respond to your comments.

Respond:

[Friedrich_der_2]

If you have ever read history about Germany and its Government before WWI, I doubt if anyone would side with you about Kaiser Wilhelm II, The Last German Emperor, and his Monarchy being a Democracy.

Oh it was a democrazy like the most democrazies at this time. Chancellor Bismarck introduced a lots of social laws. The social system in Germany is based on this principles until today. Also a lots of civil law were passed which has been very advanced.

What they had before Hitler was a joke, even Adolf knew that the Weimar Gov. would crumble if ever challenged.

The Weimarer Republic was an free democrazy but to free for that time. Germany was in a big crises because of the world crises in the 20s and because of huge reparation payments which crashed the whole republic. It was only a question if the nazis or the communists overthrow the government. There have been made lots of big mistakes from all European governments after WW1, this caused WW2.

But I know that America would alway side with another democracy, and not a Fascist Gov. like Adolf Hitlers.

In the last 50 years the USA supported a lots of faszist, dictators and other non-democratic people and nations. But this is off-topic here.

The USA perhaps would had support Nazi Germany especially against the communists but I think they would never had joined the Axis.

Do not forget in these years black people in the USA did not had the same rights as white people. England was an democrazy for all white people. In the colonies they killed for for beeing born there as black people. They behaved in a very razist manner. Until the war broke out Hitler hoped to get England on his site because of the raszism in England!

Luckily Europe is today a much better time and such wars will never happen here. Soon Poland, Germany and France will unit in the European Union with the same currency and with much common European law and a small European army! Unbelievable 60 years ago, Lucky times now

Sven

[SeaWolf_48]

What kind of history books do you get in Scandinavia (or wherever you are). Kaiser Wilhelm abolished any parliament they had under Bismark and ruled Germany with the Aristocrats and Industrialist. No, not one of the other democracys at that time was anything like Germany, except in your head.

The Weimar Gov. with it's chief captain Hindenberg (The Thomas Jefferson of Germany according to you) never became a democracy but a pseudo version of one.

Wa Wa Wa, I hear that same old ploy from ex-nasis about WWII starting because of the Versailles treaty, and how overbearing it was. It was Hitlers excuse to attack all of his made-up villians, the French and the Poles, and those gastly Ruskies (need Leiberstrom), and most of the rest of Europe for that matter. But that's another topic!

Your Servant:

SeaWolf

[kenfedoroff]

Jollyguy:

Many thanks for sharing the Allied Dutch Gambit Counter.

I am a newbie as far as human opponents and would not want to get blindsided by this one.

Sincerely,

Ken

[David Brown]

SeaWolf_48 wrote:

Lame-o!

I love a stimulating intellectual debate! Facts, theories, citations flowing all around us as we grapple with the important questions of the day!

For all the examples I gave, I first clearly stated, "this depends on your definition of 'Democracy'" -- which you have not yet provided. I also stated, in reference to the American Civil War, "If you consider the Confederacy to have been a legitimate democracy..." If you don't, and I don't, that's fine too. Please recognize that I qualify my statements where discussion or debate may be appropriate.

My comment about the US siding with Gemany was a facetious remark.

Sorry, I couldn't tell by your style of writing that you were being facetious.

Let me point you to a reference that may be of some use in this discussion: a review of Prof. R. J. Rummels "Power Kills: Democracy as a Method of Nonviolence" by Ted Galen Carpenter. Rummel is a big proponent of 'democracies never go to war with each other'. Carpenter pokes some holes in that (discussing, interesting enough, both Wilhelmine Germany and the American Civil War), although both Rummel and H-C Peterson have rebuttals. See Democracy and War. Again, it is clear that it depends on your definition of democracy. Rummel, for example, concedes that Wilhelmine Germany as certainly a democracy at least for domestic politics -- so even he sides with me. Carpenter writes:

A third hard case virtually ignored by Rummel is the western front in World War I--the bloody struggle between Britain and France on one side and Wilhelmine Germany on the other. Layne and other scholars have made solid arguments that Germany was a democratic state, as it had an elected parliament with significant powers, vigorously contested elections involving multiple parties, broad suffrage, and a reasonably free press. Although it also had some autocratic features, so did Britain and France.

As far as Hindenburg's dictatorship, Hindenburg was a figurehead for General Erich Ludendorff and their power, although greater than even the Kaiser held, was never total. Further, they didn't gain their influence until 1917. Also, Hindenburg was elected president of the Weimar Republic twice, in 1925 and 1932. Weimar was certainly a democracy, although a weak one, as its overthrow by Hitler amply demonstrated.

A further example is the Boer War, where a democratic Britain (do you believe Great Britain in 1900 was democratic?) fought with a democratic pair of Boer republics (do you believe that states with elected leaders but limited franchises are democratic? The Boers allowed only white males to vote, similar to the US at the time). So what's your definition of democracy, SeaWolf_48?

Oh, and I almost forgot: what about my example of Britain and Norway in 1940? You have not addressed that.

[What bearing does this have on the Low Countries Gambit? Not much, but it could influence your belief of how much of a penalty the Western Allies should suffer for attacking the Low Countries in a future version of SC.]

[ January 03, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: David Brown ]

[Friedrich_der_2]

Sorry Seawolf this is not true. Even if you take a look into the Microsoft Encarta you could learn more about this time.

Kaiser Wilhelm abolished any parliament they had under Bismark and ruled Germany with the Aristocrats and Industrialist. No, not one of the other democracys at that time was anything like Germany, except in your head.

From 1871 until 1918 Germany had a paliament, a chancellor and an Emporer. The emporer had more rights as today in the European countries with a king. The parliament had fewer rights which changed later in this time. First the politics have been very liberal but later the socialist party were forbidden and a few years later again allowed. There was a stalemate between emperor and parliament. Not what we would call a real democracy today but do not forget. Womens were not allowed to vote in most countries including the USA and Germany until 1918/20! France allowed womens voting in 1944! And England had not a free equal vote for all citizens until 1917 as Germany and most other countries had not too.

Do not compare today with hundred years ago.

Germany had some selfmade problems as most problems of nations are selfmade. We had 800 year the sacred Roman empire of German nation. A great power with the emporer who always claimed to be the successor the ancient Roman Caesar. But I think this not now really off-topic.

The Weimar Gov. with it's chief captain Hindenberg (The Thomas Jefferson of Germany according to you) never became a democracy but a pseudo version of one.

I did not said Hindenburg was Thomas Jefferson. But the Weimarer Republik definitly was a democracy with free secret votes for all people. Yes of course the Aristocrats and the Industry tried to influence the government, but that is done every day in the USA today or how do you explain the "Micky Mouse Copyright Extension Act"? It was a weak democracy but the president Hindenburg had more power than the USA president today.

Please take a look at a history book before writing somthing about history...

I do not think this excuses to start a war or killing jews! But the situation in Europe was much different from today. Germany and France have been in war for nearly 200 years before WW2 started. Poland did not exist very long as nation, some former German areas were gone to Poland and Russia after WW1, millions of people did not lived in their homecountries. We had a very unstable situation.

Sorry for beeing off-topic but it isn't that easy like some people think. Europe was always a powder keg. This has changed after WW2 and I am happy about it is now.

Sven

[Liam]

Wow! The information is lovely, I only have to tweak the game myself, I want to get out of France and into Russia as fast as possible as that's sorta strategic stalemate for a newbie like me even.

As far as politics!!! Germany like the rest of us has a high Nationilism. I don't think every German was bad, and I don't think that War had anything to do with economics. He got almost all the original German Empire save it's colonies and Poland. Germany never owned Austria either!

He got away with a pretty good deal up till the invasion of Poland, that was just the last step. The Allies finally figured he'd never stop!

Thus WW2 Began

[Jhon]

I see you!!!

You are very good ah!!!

But, play with the Allies in medium level. And tell my What happeed??? :mad:

Everybody know that the Axis have ADVANTAGE in the game.

[jon_j_rambo]

JollyGuy --- Nice take, rack 'em! I'm referring to your "Counter-LowCountries-Axis". That was right on the money. You put some time into that post, good info, suggests many options. That's why you got racked.