What side do you prefer and why

[Dandelion]

...strawberry jam and hotdogs...aaagghhh. Somebody send Colombia the surrender file please, it's all over.

Dandelion

[Andreas]

When I still played CMBO I preferred the Pommies, or their colonial side-kicks from Canuckia, or alternatively their soon-to-be betrayed fighters for a free Poland. Must be something about those helmets, and the 25-pdrs. I never warmed to the US forces, and everybody seems to want to play the Germans anyway. Now I much prefer to play the Soviets - most interesting weaponry and tactics.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

...strawberry jam and hotdogs...aaagghhh. Somebody send Colombia the surrender file please, it's all over.

Dandelion

Why do you think they grow all the drugs down there?

[Dandelion]

Andreas,

The great part is that even playing the Soviets, you still get to play soon-to-be-betrayed Poles, or Telegraph friends as they have been known to be called.

In fact, can't think of any greater power in European history which did not betray Poles. Napoleon did it. Both Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII did it. The Russians, Austrians and Germans have all done it countless times.

Well, there are the Italians of course.

They never betrayed Poles.

Hm.

Really makes you wonder why they'd want to join the EU.

But perhaps it should make me wonder why the EU is inviting them instead...

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

In fact, can't think of any greater power in European history which did not betray Poles. Napoleon did it. Both Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII did it.

May I comment on this that Sweden did not "betray" the Poles. There was a dynastic split dating back to late 16th century when John III had married a Polish princess. Their son Sigismund was destined to be the king of the personal union of Poland and Sweden, but since Sigismund got a Catholic raising and because Poland was so much greater than Sweden, the Swedish noblemen and clergy began fearing that the supporters of Pope would return to power and that Sigismund would prefer Poland in any cases of conflicting interests.

In this situation, it was Sigismund's uncle Charles, who had his under-aged nephew's regent, that took the crown. A civil war resulted, when some noblemen like Klaus Fleming who was the governor in Finland remained loyal to Sigismund and when at the same time peasant revolts emerged disguised in support of Charles but more as a result of the general conditions of living. All in all, Charles was victorious, but Sigismund retained the Wasa name and a claim to the Swedish crown. Thus, when Gustav II Adolf invaded Polish Lithuania in 1625, the Sejm (the parliament of noblemen) considered it to be just a family dispute between him and Sigismund, and did not interfere.

Btw. Russians have been betrayed by Poles, Germans, French, English, Turkish, Ukrainians, Finns, Romanians, Hungarians, Swedes, Austrians, Czechs and Slovaks, Italians, even by Russians themselves. I don't know if they have any grudges against the Spaniards (the Spanish Civil War, anyone?) or the Portuguese. That's how mischievous we Europeans are.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Andreas,

The great part is that even playing the Soviets, you still get to play soon-to-be-betrayed Poles, or Telegraph friends as they have been known to be called.

Ah, but the Soviets were not the one doing the betraying, only capitalist colonialist worker-oppressing class-based reactionary societies such as Britain are capable of such acts of heinous backstabbing - in fact the Poles on the Soviet side were fighting for a Poland free to be suppressed by Stalin's stooges, and they magnificently achieved that aim. The trust and unanimity between the Soviets and the Poles was such that the Polish combat units were often commanded by Soviet officers with Soviet commissars thrown in. True friendship and common goals if I have ever seen them.

[OZ77]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Andreas,

In fact, can't think of any greater power in European history which did not betray Poles.

I think you forgot to mention France and Britain(1-30 September 1939).

[Dandelion]

Sergei

Russia was attacked by volonteers from Spain and thus should harbour a grudge. Besides, Spain was lost to that much detested Buchanin. If it ails her however, she can smile in remembrance of how she stole the entire gold reserve of Spain during the Civil War. Perhaps that evens the score somewhat.

And! That's how mischievous Europeans were. We don't do these things anymore. The Swedes are curbed, the Russians pauperised, the Germans tamed, the British exhausted and the French calmed. This is an entirely Old Europe seeing light.

Andreas,

don't worry about the British capitalist oppressors. The err of their ways will inevitably create growing misery for workers as competition for profit leads capitalists to adopt labour saving machinery, creating a vast reserve army of unemployed. These will eventually and inevitably rise up and seize the means of production, creating a harmonious worker state. Having once massacred the bourgouisie of course, can't make an omelet etc. And we all want omelets.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[flamingknives]

Historical-politics aside, I cast my vote:

British

* "Chew on this pineapple, Fritz"

* Fireflies

* 95mm support tanks

* long range vehicle flamethrowers (wasp, crocodile)

* 3" mortar - best on map mortars in the game

* 6pdr ATG. Add tungsten for big game hunting

* Bren gun carriers (for carting the above around in)

*Ram Kangeroos. APCs that are proof against small calibre guns. (e.g. 20 and 37mm Flak)

* Cheap scout cars

* 2" mortar - the bane of ATGs

* 17pdr guns, in all shapes, forms and mountings.

[lcm1947]

Since writing this post I have played the German's and the British in some Pbem's as well as against the computer and I am growing fond of the Brit's too. That Firefly is extremely accurate and the 2 inch mortar awlful handy since it has no mininum range. They seem to hold up better under fire better then the American's too meaning they don't seem to break as much. Although I have to admit I do enjoy the German's steel toys and so many to choose from. It's taken over 3 years before willing to play anything other then the American's but now I do believe I prefer not playing them. Well, at least for awhile.

[De Mercy]

Despite being French, I must admit playing the Brits.

Although their infantry is a bit weak, they are great at infantry support (nasty tanks with 95mm, FT, Art, Mortar...), on which my tactics are based.

Add that nasty 17" gun and all is said.

[ May 23, 2003, 04:03 AM: Message edited by: De Mercy ]

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Historical-politics aside [---]* "Chew on this pineapple, Fritz"

Contradiction with intent?

Dandelion

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by De Mercy:

[snips]

Add that nasty 17" gun and all is said.

Blimey. A 17-incher? That does sound nasty.

All the best,

John.

[Richie]

I must admit it's the Germans. There's something undeniably fun about taking on the whole world ...

[flamingknives]

Posted by: Dandelion </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Historical-politics aside [---]* "Chew on this pineapple, Fritz"

Contradiction with intent?

Dandelion </font>

[Dandelion]

If you say so,

..Limey.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[ May 23, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Dandelion ]

[flamingknives]

If I'm not mistaken, 'Fritz' doesn't have any connection to any political party, current or historical.

Neither does 'limey', although 'tommy' might be a better retort.

There. Non-political.

[Dandelion]

Flame

"Fritz" is listed as a nickname in my dictionary, but sounds rather...resentful. Like "Kraut" and "Hun", but not at all as bad as "Boche". I have yet to meet a German very fond of any of these terms.

I realise that you meant no offence, and none is taken.

I was very careful to check up "Limey", to feel safe you would not be offended by it either (it says its US jargon for Englishmen in my dictionary, and I couldn't imagine the Yanks to be offending you, so I chose that one). I hope I was successful in this.

"Jerry" is the personal favourite however, and is I firmly believe popular among Germans in general, especially older perhaps, as it sounds so in want of resentment.

There is no German Kiplingish Thomas Atkins by the name of "Fritz". The equivalent of "Tommy" would be "Landser". But its not quite the same. You couldnt say "Landser" to a civilian, it just sounds strange. Also, "Landser" is obsolete while "Tommy" is still alive.

"Jerry" is really the answer

But I know we habitually offend British in return, also with no intent. In German, "English" is more or less synonymous with "British", to most people anyway, and so every UK citizen is called "Engländer". This usually will not make Scotsmen, Welsh or Irish frolic. The term "UK" is not used at all and when I translate it into German in EU documents, people ask me what state I am referring to. Its "England", or "Gross Britannien". Overt pipe-blowing and kilt wearing might render men the term Scottish, but thats just about what it'll take.

I read the account of a Welshman taken prisoner in 45, who was interrogated and among other things was asked why he had come to Germany to fight (the eternal question). He answers "for freedom", even though he admits he feels a little stupid saying it. Anyway, the German officer is enraged and shouts in Oxford-English "Get out of here you bloody Englishman!" The Welshman ends the story there, because to him the irony is full circle. But actually there's no real point to the story. So he's Welsh. That's what the officer said wasn't it?

While we are on this topic, might I take the opportunity to ask how the names "Jock" and "Mick" are perceived by their respective target ethnic groups. Predominantly negative or positive?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[lcm1947]

Well I'm certainly not a jock, wish I was but alas I'm not but even if I was I wouldn't take offense to the word jock. I am part Irish and I wouldn't take offense to Mick either. I am an American however and don't take Yank or Yankee as an insult. Now I just learned from this topic that Kraut, Bocke, Hun or Fritz is not the playful, kidding term that I thought they were like the way I take Yank. So I've learned something today. If I ever used those terms before and I'm sure I have let me confirm right now that I never intended them to offend or hurt anybody's feeling nor were they meant to be anything other then a light hearted good natured kidding. So there Jerry.

[Dandelion]

Lee

Its an English speaking site so English dictionaries rule. And its all in the intent of the speaker. Sounds it innocent and playful in English, it will be conceived as such here.

One should perhaps note that the Germans didnt get to choose these names for themselves (unlike Tommy, Yankee and Poilou).

Thus all words serve well as insults if said with an undertone of resentment, whereas "You...you Tommy you!" just doesn't sound very insulting regardless of how you speak it.

Much like "Jerry". It does not leave you wondering about intents.

Hearing "Boche" from a Frenchman would be serious. I cant see a situation where this would be a friendly joke. The word is equivalent of the N word for black people really. Full of hate and disgust.

Hearing it from an Englishman or American is not the same. They are forgiven, for they know not what they are saying

There is a treaties on military slang - very interesting in fact - in this article on WWI. An excerpt on "Boche" reads:

---

"Although the French used Fritz as well, Boche was the term of choice. Its etymology is complex and uncertain, but its pejorative implications of obstinacy and generally uncivilised behaviour are undeniable. The Germans loathed the word and considered it a profound insult. Bergmann claimed that the Germans used no such derogatory terms, for "wir Deutschen wissen uns zum Glück frei von... kindischen Hass" ("we Germans know ourselves to be happily free from such childish hatred"), but Dauzat disputes that.

The unusually derogatory nature of Boche may reflect French bitterness over the defeat of 1870 and the invasion of 1914. Dauzat insists that Boche is a "mot de l'arripre" ("a word of the rear"), and that the soldiers preferred Fritz, Pointu (for the pre-1916 German spiked helmets) or even Michel for artillerymen."

---

"Free of childish hate", yeah right.

Anyway, here also it says "Fritz" was not intended as an insult by the British troops, and indeed that "Jerry" relieved "Fritz" as the normal term for Germans, so making the two completely equal in meaning.

But they still sound different:)

Cheerio

Tommy

PS. Met a Texan over the internet who did not like to be called Yankee. Yank was good, Yankee was not. His comment immediately triggered a rather fierce debate between Americans (this was BBC) in which we others could only be shamelessly amused spectators.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

One should perhaps note that the Germans didnt get to choose these names for themselves (unlike Tommy, Yankee and Poilou).

My information might not be outstandingly groggish, but nevertheless, Wilhelm II was a German, and he made that famous speech in which he encouraged the German troops, who were going to put down the Boxer rebellion (peace-keeping forces of the era?), to fight like Huns, showing no mercy. So there you go...

[lcm1947]

Interesting Dandelion. As I only have a regular dictionary and these terms aren't even in it except for Kraut which I just looked up after reading the few posts before my last one I wasn't aware that they were meant as an insult, ignorant on my part. Anyway, I will be more careful in the future but it is always interesting to learn new things. Well I am surprised to hear that Tommy and or Yankee was picked by us ourselves. Hmmm, had I picked I would have picked something cooler but maybe you meant Yank was picked by the British and Tommy by us? That's probably what you meant. Althought if correct is not really accurate as Yank which I assume is from the word Yankee doesn't really apply as Yankee is more accurately a slang term for those in the Northern states during the Civil War whereas Confederates pertained to the Southern states. So I can see a Texan not wanting to be called a Yank or Yankee but of course it all depends on how thin skinned an individual is or how bitter he still is over losing the Civil War and not wanting to be assocated with them, the Yankees. But we are wrong as the dictionary states that a Yankee is: a native or inhabitant of the U.S. This of course is not correct as I'm sure the dictionaries are printed in the North and they don't know nothing. Stupid Yankees. Again, Dandelion thanks for the lesson. Always interesting to read your posts.

[flamingknives]

Crikey, I wouldn't put 'Fritz' as anything like as bad as 'Hun' or 'Kraut'

'Jerry' seems to be a collective term as well, whereas 'Fritz' would be directed at an individual, so I suppose there is more liklihood of offense (none intended, incidently).

I wouldn't want to call an Irishman 'Mick' though (unless it was his name) as that is apparently liable to stir up some of the conflict that's been going on there.

A friend of mine related a story whereupon an Army cadet was chased across a barrack room by an enraged Ulsterman for calling him a Mick.

The cockney banter of the British in CMBO is (IMHO) a nice difference from the Americans.

[Dandelion]

Lee,

Kipling wrote of Thomas Atkins, a (fictional) soldier serving in the British army in the colonies. Like most of his work it was used in pro-war propaganda and "Tommy" Atkins became a popular figure. The Germans picked it up. Its still used about the British, especially the soldiers. It has no negative undertone in German. Not really positive either I suppose. Its plainly the "Brits".

I've been looking for somebody named "Fritz", prompting the British to pick up the name. But I can't find any significant person. Alte Fritz perhaps? Thats Fredrick the Great. Would be very interesting to know if there was a character behind the term.

Sergei,

Interesting, I didn't know that, but you know it sounds just like the Kaiser. The man was deranged.

In my German dictionary it says that the term "Hun" was first used by British press during the first war, and then caught on. So its quite credible that the journalists were referring to some at the time well known Kaiserlich outburst.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I believe Tommy Atkins was also the example name given to help fill in a soldiers pay book during The Great War.