Sovjet Strategy

[Norse]

Hello boys and girls!

I have played quite a number of PBEM games by now, so I have seen a number of useless and a few useful ways to play as the Sovjets.

As you all know by now, each game is a unique experience, so drawing up the "perfect" strategy for the Sovjet Union is difficult.

This strategy is therefore not an absolute blueprint. Rather it is a general guideline and gives you some insight into how to properly play the Sovjet Union. If you don't like it, don't use it, it is that simple. I can always play the axis side and enjoy yet another victory lol

Ok, so be quiet and pay attention to this briefing Here we go.

The most important quality to any Sovjet leader, is to know

* when he is defending, and when he is attacking.

If you mix this up, then you are leapfrogging towards total disaster.

When the Sovjet Union joins the war, ALWAYS assume that you are on the defence right away. This counts even if the Axis is launching major offensives in UK or USA and leaves you alone. The Sovjet forces are not ready to attack from the beginning, so play safe and go with your defensive plan, and eventually you will win. By the time Germany turns her attention towards Sovjet (with or without UK/USA still in the game),USSR will be having a really hard time, so it is abselutely critical that you tend to your defences from the very beginning. Remember that your objective at this point is to stay alive, not to defeat the Axis. Got it?

Now imagine a line that goes down from Leningrad in the north, thru Smolensk, and down into Rostov. Make any kind of adjustments to this line as you see fit, as this is the main line of defence. This is where you must try to stop the Germans! If you make this line too close to the Polish border, then generally speaking, you will not have time to make your Sovjet military powerful enough, and a good German player can then crush you beyond repair. So be safe, stay alive, and keep the line far enough behind. Loosing a city or two is acceptable, you can always get them back later.

First thing first, send all your airunits far behind (Urals seems nice this time of the year). Your fighters are toast against the veteran German airunits right now, so play safe, and send them back to the Urals while you still have them. When the time is right, you can rotate them back to the frontline and put them to good use. Until then, keep them hidden as the secret Sovjet weapon.

Secondly, place a corp in every city in front of your defensive line. The units in theese cities will never move, their only mission is to dig in to max entrenchment value (4 in the cities), and defend the cities for as long as possible. Even if they all die, they will buy you 2 or more turns before the Germans reach up to your main defensive line. 2 turns means atleast 800 MPP to add to your defensive line. 3 turns means 1200 MPP and so on. When your foreward garrisons are under attack by the Germans, don't move them, just reinforce them as much as possible and let the Germans waste another turn trying to take your cities. If the Germans decide to move around your garrisons and head towards your main line of defence, then congratulations, you just denied the Germans their weekly income of MPP.

By the time the axis reach your defensive line, you should have a line of units that are entrenched to max (2 or 4), that are in full supply, and if you play your cards right, you should have a couple HQ's by now that boost the combat value of your units in the frontline.

Make sure that you employ your HQ's right, make sure that they boost the units at the frontline only. Don't waste HQ power on units in the urals etc, be smart or be dead. At the same time, you must try to keep your HQ's alive from axis air-raids. I know theese two things are difficult to combine, but do your best. The fate of the world depends on it.

Now you are in for a ride, as the axis units begin to hurl themselves at your defences day and night. Don't panic, and keep it safe. Remember that your ONLY mission at this point is to stay alive, so don't do anything foolish, and the tide will turn soon.

For example, if you got a unit in position that is at strenght 6, then don't use it to attack anyone. Just be safe, stay alive, and reinforce the unit.

If you need to retreat, then remember the procedure to successfully withdraw:

* Entrench cheap foreward units who are only trying to stall the enemy and buy you time

* Find a defensive line, and try to get the HQ units to boost the front-line units only, excess units should be rotated further behind (possibly to a 2nd line of defence)

* Reinforce your units instead of attacking with them

With time, your Sovjet military will grow in size, firepower, and capabilities.

By now, you should have: Armies and tank-armies assisting assisting your corp's at the front line, HQ's to boost your frontline units firepower to the tenfolds, and some tech advances to give you the edge.

Make a decision wheter you need more time to build a stronger military, wait for more time to research tech advances, or if you want to take to the offensive.

If you take to the offensive, then do not repeat worldwar1 and hurl your units at the enemy. That is costy and achives nothing, you would be better off to research more instead then. This is the procedure to successfully counterattack:

* Kill the German HQ units first

Unless you find an opening, then this is normally done with airpower. So now is a very good time to rotate all your airunits back to the front, and send them en-masse to crush the German spirit! Remember to attach your airunits to HQ to increase their firepower. Also, hopefully you researched some Jet technology, so your fighters actually stand a chance against the German Luftwaffe.

If you manage to destroy a German HQ or more, then the axis units run out of supply and their firepower is halved!

NOW you can unleash your hordes of glorious Sovjet soldiers! :cool: If you do this right, then every Sovjet unit can have three times the firepower compared to the axis units. Why? Because you are smart, and you got your units attached to HQ's, while the Germans got no more HQ's. The German player keeps "moving" his units to attack you, so he hasn't entrenched his units (well atleast we can hope that he hasn't).

The best offensives are the ones who manage to trap German units. So, try to get a breakethru in the enemy lines. Try to exploit this breakethru, and if possible, cut off 2 or 3 enemy units so they cannot be operated back to safety.

Now that your offensive have achived it's goal, you can switch back to defensive strategy again. Dig in and soldify your new positions as you prepare for the next round of combat. The German units that you got trapped, are rapidly running out of supply and firepower, so you don't haveto worry about them. Unless you are very unlucky (or just plain silly), the trapped Germans will soon be prisoners in the Gulag.

Good luck, the race towards Berlin has begun. I see you there, with a box of cuban cigars :cool:

~Norse~

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Amen, ive just begun work on something im calling 'The Book of Mannerheim' it consists of SC strategies. This is good norse, very good indeed......

[daystrom]

Some excellent advice Norse. I can say from experience that their is nothing as unsettling as pounding your Axis forces into the SU only to find that they have retreated most of their forces.

cheers,

Ray

[RicKhan]

As a well bloodied Soviet player, thx for your advice. Much of it learned in the same way.

Many players out there will benefit from your words. Even the axis players. :cool:

Which Leaders do you like to buy first?

Have you tried the river as a defense line?

Do you take out Finland as an appetizer, using Air and Tanks? Then Amphib from Helsinki?Do you SCRAPE the navy or "go for broke"? :confused:

Just a couple of questions which i have my own answers for, but would like your opinion.

[Norse]

Originally posted by RicKhan:

As a well bloodied Soviet player, thx for your advice. Much of it learned in the same way.

Many players out there will benefit from your words. Even the axis players. :cool:

Which Leaders do you like to buy first?

Have you tried the river as a defense line?

Do you take out Finland as an appetizer, using Air and Tanks? Then Amphib from Helsinki?Do you SCRAPE the navy or "go for broke"? :confused:

Just a couple of questions which i have my own answers for, but would like your opinion.

Cheers guys, glad you find the advice useful

On rivers, I should have included this in the above post, but units on rivers cannot entrench, and units that attack from river hexes only attack at 50% capability (air units excluded). If possible, then try to make good use of the river hexes that are around. Stand behind them and force the axis to attack from the rivers

Finland isn't worth it in my opinion. You can only expect a MPP reward of 300, and if you are fighting a guy that is really giving you a hard time, then I advice you try to stay alive instead. You can always round up Finland later. If you play a guy that has no clue at all, or is busy fighting UK or USA, then you could do it

Something I heard about that might be useful, is to take Iraq. By taking Iraq, then I hear you can operate units from Sovjet and into Africa - and vice versa. So you can get allied units (Uk, Free French etc) to operate from Africa and into Sovjet, if that is needed. I haven't actually tried this one myself, so no guarentees

About the HQ's I get, I tend to get the medium quality ones first. They aren't so expensive as the best ones, so you can get 1 corp in addition. If I can't afford that, then getting a cheap HQ is better than getting none!!

The navy, just keep it. You hardly get any MPP from scrapping it, this is my opinion. There are so many uses for your navy, you can bombard the enemy for free, and if the German player sends his Luftwaffe or navy to sink your ships, then some other units (Royal navy or your own troops) get some time off to breathe. Do as you wish though, I don't see the navy making or breaking the defence of Soviet. But everything helps, and I think having the navy around helps alot, even if it just the presence of it.

Cheers

~Norse~

[ October 21, 2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[Lou Wigman]

This strategy won't work. The human v human side of the game is seriously broken. In every game so far the Axis has about 25 airfleets by late 1942. Most of these are bedecked with medals. The ground units too are complete veterans. The entire French coastline is lined with corps backed up by 10 airfleets. The rest is grinding the USSR into pulp in a WWI style battle of attrition. The USSR will lose more corps than it is able to replace and gradually becomes weaker. The Western Allies are utterly powerless to do anything about it. I have just about thrown in the towel with SC. Some serious adjustments need to be made to play balance.

[Lou Wigman]

Sorry - double post

[ October 21, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Lou Wigman ]

[Norse]

Lou Wigman,

I belive you didn't read the above strategy suggestion, as I strongly advice against attacking ww1 style (also called, the newbie style ). By delaying the Germans at the front, and focusing on a defensive line further behind, then you will get a shot at holding your own against the Germans by the time they get up to you.

The German airfleets won't be able to reach your units there right away, so it will take some time for them to get up, and most likely they are getting used on attacking your garrisons up front - slowing them down even more.

By the time they get up, you have collected enough MPP to buy more airfleets on your own.

So don't say it is impossible, I have done this again and again successfully Don't give up already. It's not impossible, it's just a great challenge (and the heroes emerge from the challenges, don't they? )

~Norse~

[Lou Wigman]

The Germans don't start out with 25 air fleets. However with max industrial research and 400+ MMPs per turn they are able to replace all their losses AND put on a new airfleet EVERY turn. The Allies can't scratch them and its all down hill. AS the USSSR I NEVER attack the Axis. However after reinforcing the frontline there are generally only enough MMPs for about 4 new corps. With its massive airfleets the Axis generally destroys a minimum of 5 as well as damaging many more. Its simple arithmetic. The USSR gets ground to a pulp. Their only hope is an invasion of France. But by keeping a large airforce in France and lining the coast with corps that avenue is stopped dead in its tracks.

Perhaps my friends and I are in a rut, but this Axis strategy seems unstoppable. Furthermore there is nothing as soul destroying as losing more troops each turn than can be replaced and knowing that there is no conceivable circumstance that will turn this around. It destroys the game.

[I/O Error]

Excellent advice Norse, seems perfectly in line with the few PBEM games I have under my belt on either side. Soviet players that follow your advice, conquer. Those who do not, lose.

Hey, is there any chance you could come up with something this effective for the French against the Axis? Pretty please?

Lou Wigman: I recommend changing some of the game options. I would suspect that you are playing with the Soviets set to "Neutral". Under that setting, they are always the victims of Axis attack, and are never able to attack first. The first time I fired up SC and played the AI, I was terrified to see "Soviet Union prepares to war". I barely managed to get a blocking force of cheap units there in time, and that just totally screwed up my overly slow-paced invasion of France, lol. Even against a mere computer opponent, that was a pleasant shock.

[ October 21, 2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: I/O Error ]

[Lou Wigman]

I'm talking human v human here. Against the AI I play expert +1. I have little difficulty winning as either the Axis or the Allies.

[Jollyguy]

Lou Wigman is correct, Norse's strategy won't work against an accomplished Axis player whose had average research luck. Hard to go up against level 3 or higher tanks, jets, and production.

However, I believe with modest gameplay tweaks, teh Allies will stand a better chance. Adjustments to research, and a second or third capital in Russia, and a few more chits and/or advances to the Allies, will give the Allies a better chance of hanging on by their fingernails until they can turn the tide.

[I/O Error]

Edit: Replying to Lou Wigman

We knew you were, that's what we were assuming. (The AI doesn't build up 25 air fleets.)

I suggested changing the setting for the Soviet Union so that the Axis player does NOT get that much time to build up his forces. I mean if you really want to cripple an Allies player, just set either the Soviet Union or the USA to "Neutral".

[ October 22, 2002, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: I/O Error ]

[Norse]

The game is biased, it is called the initiative. To win the game, you must understand what to do in order to take the initiative from the enemy, so he doesn't win.

This requires understanding of the underlying game mechanics. If the Germans build alot of Luftwaffe, which is biased, then they have the initiative so they win.

The trick is to understand what you need to do in order to take the initiative from the Germans, so you win instead.

It is difficult. War is hell.

And Lou, please read my full suggestion (the first post) before whining about how you attack ww1 style, loose all your units, and how biased the game is...

War IS bias. Face it.

~Norse~

(sorry about the edit)

[ October 22, 2002, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[RicKhan]

It is so much easier to say "NO won't work", than it is to say "Thank You for the advice".

Norse, laid out guidelines for those who have found themselves on the Eastern Front and want to survive longer and hopefully make a comeback. Reading simple guidance about how others have survived and trying it out does not cost much.

The advice given here i've already implemented as doctrine when playing as the Allies, before i ever even read this post. Norse, just confirmed much of what i have done to survive playing against the axis juggernaut. It will not work 100% of the time, but every win as the allies is sweeter than the last.

It has not been said this will work against AirFleets aplenty(that should be its own thread), but then we all play different people and draw our own conclusions & adapt as we can, based on our gaming experience.

[Norse]

nm, lol

[ October 22, 2002, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[cyclem]

He guys, thanks for the great posts,

this is definitively good reading material,

I am still new to SC, but not new to wargamming.

I've been playing this kind of game for years.

Why don't you try this: PBEM of Norse vs Lou.

Let's see who's strategy will actually work.

Everybody can flame mail and argue, talk is cheap. Make a game, and write weekly status on the progress of the game. We'll then see what strategy work and how it can then be adapted for other games down the road.

What do you think ?

[Jeff Heidman]

Great tactics, Norse.

Frankly, the "25 air units Axis" game is not one I am interested in playing. My impression is that it is a game breaker. I am currently playing a game against a very good opponent as the Axis. Due to pure luck, I got up to T14 jets by late '41. I guess I could ahve just built a dozen air fleets and pounded my way into the USSR.

BUt would I ahve had any fun? Nope.

I was not aggressive enough entering the USSR, and got stalled, and pushed back to the Polish border. Now we have mostly bogged down into a WW1ish static line, and the action is mostly going on elsewhere in the world.

I still don't have any plans to build up a bunch of air power. I am quite willing to punish him wherever I can with my superior air force, but am unwilling to exploit what I see as a loophole in the game to turn it into a farce, jsut so I can win.

Jeff

[Tdolling]

O.K. in my current PBEM game I have built a double line of corps and a few armies north to south from Leningrad all the way down. I am entrenched and my line has held for many turns it is now I believe the summer of 1942. The problem is that replacing and reinforcing this corp is costing me so much that it is slow and difficult to buy anything with some hitting power. Also he keeps rotating his front line and gaining experience that my army loses everyturn because I have to reinforce them. I have 4 HQ and my airfleets that are slightly damaged. I believe that I need to relieve pressure from the Russian front with the US and UK. Any suggestions. Oh, he also punched a hole in the line and is now able to use 3 armies to hit one corp instead of two when the line was straight. It seems to be only a matter of time before the line breaks.

[Gman]

Thanks Norse. I second the comments of RickKhan. I stumbled across a similar strategy playing the Soviet Union. However I haven't played this vs a Human. Just the AI. Expert +1. I've just started a PBEM game and will let you know.

[Lou Wigman]

Norse

You didn't read my post properly. It is not the USSR that is fighting a WWI style game, it is the GERMANS. Each turn they concentrate their airforce against a limited number of corps and do more damage than can ever be replaced by the Russian player. As for not building 25 airfleets why wouldn't you if the game allows. This shows up flaws in the game that should be addressed. I guess you can have a gentleman's agreement not do certain things (such as the Axis invading Britain which will always be successful). But where do you draw the line? Do you prohibit anything which didn't actually happen? Sorry, but the game needs some serious attention to prevent absurd strategies from being employed. In the case of massive Axis airpower I offer two distinct suggestion

* Introduce an 'oil' resource and make each side pay maintenance for their units.

* Make each side pay maintenance for units based on the available MMPS.

An air unit would be made expensive to maintain. The first option is the better.

[Norse]

Originally posted by Lou Wigman:

I guess you can have a gentleman's agreement not do certain things (such as the Axis invading Britain which will always be successful).

Lou Wigman, all I can say is that you need more practice.

It is possible to defeat the Germans if they attemnt to invade UK.

~Norse~

[dgaad]

Lou and Norse should have a PBEM with a full AAR.

[Archibald]

Beat me to it Dgaad, it looks like the only way to settle this!

[docd]

One question guys: As axis I invaded Poland, France, , Swiss, complete Balkan, Spain, Portugal, complete Northafrica, Iraq, Turkey and invaded USSR with a massive combined force of about 10 aircrafts and 6 tanks. But I couldn´t punch a way through, because my enemy held a double line.

Because I threw everything vs Russia with slow advance, I left France open, which is now invaded like Spain also.

So please give me someone a clue for better axis play; I did not have enough MPP´s to attack USSR or to defend westcoast with a corps line. My advance was despite of 10 airfleet and 6 tanks to slow, moreover the scorched earth left me with nothing in my hand when I took a town.

Everybody says axis is so strong, but please offer the strategy!!!