PBEM Ladder

[Oak]

We need to look at getting a PBEM ladder, league or something of the sort going for those players that need to -- or prefer to -- play by email instead of TCP/IP.

Any thoughts on how to get that going?

[JerseyJohn]

I believe the current ladder started out as PBEM but there were so many complaints of cheating, mainly by restarting moves, that it fell apart.

PBEM, as it's setup currently, isn't suited for competitive games. It's good if you want to play the game socially. Persoanlly I like to send and receive e-mails with some thoughts exchanged along with the moves. SC isn't a competitive activity for most of us.

[disorder]

jollyguy has some good thoughts regarding an UPLOAD/DOWNLOAD area for pbem's. right on the UPLOAD page it could state "# of times reloaded", and "time game was uploaded", etc. would it be possible with sc2? dont know.

would this be a complete fix? no. but as has been noted by those who play tcp/ip, the tcp/ip connection is not "cheat-proof" either.

it would make all games visible to their peers though!

[Panzer39]

The only person a cheater cheats in cheating is the cheater

I don't see the harm in starting one if all those involved take an oath not to cheat. If someone knows that they have the urge to cheat in PBEM than they can choose not to apply. I agree with John that PBEM is more social but it can also be competitive if everyone involved plays fair.

I hardly play any TCP games of SC because I find it tedious waiting for the other player to move. It is ok during the opening moves but as soon as the action heats up the pace slows down. I would like to see some more competitive SC PBEM games either in tournament or ladder form.

[Oak]

I agree that the focus of PBEM play should be on fun. In fact, the focus of ANY game should be on fun.

What about a tournament focused on fun and playing lots of games? In the first round, all the participants play each other. So, if there are 30 participants then there are 29 games in the first round. The tournament would take a very long time to finish, but it would provide a chance to play a lot of games and a lot of other different players.

[Thales]

How about just starting with a list of people who are interested in playing PBEM games? If there's only 5 or 6 people interested there's not much point in forming a ladder.

[Reepicheep]

I like your outlook, Oak; the point should be good fun. And a good loser gets more respect than a poor winner.

The idea of every player playing every other player sounds good to me. The primary issue in SC would be time- but then such a tournament would essentially be like a ladder, only different.

By the way, I don't believe you can make PBEM more cheat-resistant without a patch to the game to make SC keep track of loads on the program side instead of the file side. Also, encryption and packing of savegames immediately after they are saved- with them being decrypted and unpacked only when the password is entered- might help quite a bit as well.

Wouldn't be fool-proof I suppose; but it would be quite a bit harder to cheat.

[Jollyguy]

I would participate in a pbem ladder.

[disorder]

submitted for your approval---

SACRIFICIAL LAMB

being the lowest categorie on the pbem ladder. this pic is on picturetrail.com in my account and if you would like to use it, it wont be "disappearing" any time soon.

JERSEYJOHN--please post that wildly-anticipated list of CATEGORIES for a future PBEM ladder. i felt it was inspired and useful, and....and i accidentally deleted it off my hard drive. i will post some pic possibilities if you give me a list of what you were thinking.

[JerseyJohn]

Mr d --

Vintage, classic disorder ! !!

I'll be glad to copy that entry and send it to you -- we can kick the ideas around before posting our suggestions. It will be a joint effort -- looking forward to seeing those category Icons.

Oak

Mr d and I are talking about a loose ladder system we were tossing about. There would be seven levels, the entry level, Fresh Blood would be second from the bottom. From there a player can move after a small number of games to the next higher level, or down to Sacrificial Lamb . The highest ranking is Cold Blooded Killer , which would take a lot of wins to achieve. None of the levels would be permanent; players could move up and down according to their overall results. I don't want to say more now as disorder and myself will be working out the details.

After we post it we'll see if it's accepted favorably and if so, perhaps it can be used as the model. We're trying to keep it simple and enjoyable.

[ July 08, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Tigleth Pilisar]

Lets just start a PBEM ladder and worry about cheating later. I like the oath not to cheat idea, and am interested in the JJ experience titles/categories.

I can't understand all this worry about cheating. In business its kind of like saying, "lets not open a store because someone might shoplift." Yeah, they might, but should fear prevent us from going forward? Maybe we will lose 1-2% of sales to theives and we'll do what we can about it, but what about the 98-99% of business that customers happily pay and we happily collect?

Bottom line is the PBEM ladder will only work if the players are credible and don't cheat.

[disorder]

just a test! please ignore

[JerseyJohn]

This is the Rating system disorder and myself have been working on. Players would be divided into seven levels, entering at the sixth, from which they can either climb another six with an honorary title above that, or actually drop down to the basement, Sacrificial Lamb level.

Suggested Levels as per Active Point Balance

(Lifetime Title Grim Reaper) Awarded to anyone whose Balance reaches 300 points. This is only a title, their rated Games Count as category they happen to be in. i.e. if a Grim Reaper subsequently looses a ton of games and his Balance drops to 103 points, he's a level III for rating purpose, though he will ALWAYS be referred to as a Grim Reaper!

I Angel of Death = 150 or Higher

II Heartless Assassin = 130 to 149

III Skull Cracker = 100 to 129

IV Hardened Mercenary = 60 to 99

V Born to Kill = 30 to 59

VI < Fresh Blood > = 0 to 29

VII Sacrificial Lamb = Negative Balance

Rating Adjustments per Games Played: Upper represents lower rated player winning, center is equal ratings, lower represents higher rating winning. Current rating is the players point total.

If, for example the players total is 63 he's in the (IV) Hardened Mercenary Bracket. If his total is -4, he's a (VII) Sacrificial Lamb. To elaborate once more on what was mentioned above, any player who ever reaches 300 points attains the Life Title of Grim Reaper, which he can never lose. Even if he subsequently drops all the way down to Sacrificial Lamb, though calculating a Grim Reaper's games would be done exactly as with anyone else. In other words, it's only an honorary title; a grim reaper who drops to Level Four (Hardened Mercenary) has his games calculated as a player in that bracket IV.

Naturally, it's very unlikely that such a player, having attained so high a point total, would ever slide below Level One.

Rating Changes after an Individual Game.

Up Six Levels Underdog gains 13, Favored loses 14

Up Five Levels Underdog gains 12, Favored loses 13

Up Four Levels Underdog gains 11, Favored Loses 12

Up Three Levels Underdog gains 10, Favored loses 11

Up Two Levels Underdog gains 9, Favored loses 10

Up One Level Underdog gains 8, Favored loses 9

Equal Levels Winner gains 7, Defeated loses 7

Down One Favored gains 6, Underdog loses 5

Down Two Favored gains 5, Underdog loses 4

Down Three Favored gains 4, Underdog loses 3

Down Four Favored gains 3, Underdog loses 2

Down Five Favored gains 2, Underdog loses 1

Down Six Favored gains 1 Underdog loses 0

[ July 10, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[KDG]

So what you are saying is that someone that is at .500 has a good chance of having 0 points, thus being Fresh Blood? or even worse, possibly be considered a sacrificial lamb?

I like a point assessment for wins and losses, but think the system needs some more tweaking. I'd suggest adding at least one point to every victory.

Based on playing 6 games at once, you might finish a game every two weeks. Thus after 6 months, you might have finished 14 games.

Assume a record of 8-6, with a variety of players being played, you might have only 2 points after 6 months of playing. By adding one point to every victory, that same person would have 10 points.

I'd also have 10 levels, with a change every 15 points.

[mpacc]

Im willing to play if you would let me.

[JerseyJohn]

KDG

This is only a suggestion. I'm not a mathematician. It needs to be worked so it's stable but still fun to play. The way I've got it set up would make it very difficult to climb the ladder, which is what I'd intended. It would be easier down the road, after some people have risen to I, II and III levels so their losses will provide a windfall to lower ranked players.

Maybe someone with a .500 record should have zero points, but it would largely depend upon who he's been playing. If all his opponents had been Level I players and he had an equal record against them he'd definitely have a positive score. If he had a .500 record against sacrificial lambs his score would probably be less than impressive.

It doesn't matter to me if we keep those Tier names or replace them with better ones, or if we do or don't use the system I've proposed or tweak it, whatever, as long as we come up with something feasable.

[ July 10, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[xediel]

hmmmm... it has potential but it should be worked upon :cool:

[disorder]

for approval---by vote or otherwise.

I Angel of Death = 150 or Higher

II Heartless Assassin = 130 to 149

III Skull Cracker = 100 to 129

IV Hardened Mercenary = 60 to 99

V Born to Kill = 30 to 59

VI < Fresh Blood > = 0 to 29

VII Sacrificial Lamb = Negative

icons can be easily cut and pasted and put on "image" before any post. they are incredibally small, so memory wont take up much, and if you use the address from my PICTURETRAIL account instead of linking to the battlefront url, no possible problems i can think of! if someone has some better icons, or wants something different here, let me know.IM FLEXIBLE!

[ July 12, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: disorder ]

[jon_j_rambo]

I'm not in your league, but I prefer the terms "World-Beater" & "Head-Cracker".

[Tigleth Pilisar]

Up Six Levels Underdog gains 13, Favored loses 14

Up Five Levels Underdog gains 12, Favored loses 13

Up Four Levels Underdog gains 11, Favored Loses 12

Up Three Levels Underdog gains 10, Favored loses 11

Up Two Levels Underdog gains 9, Favored loses 10

Up One Level Underdog gains 8, Favored loses 9

Equal Levels Winner gains 7, Defeated loses 7

Down One Favored gains 6, Underdog loses 5

Down Two Favored gains 5, Underdog loses 4

Down Three Favored gains 4, Underdog loses 3

Down Four Favored gains 3, Underdog loses 2

Down Five Favored gains 2, Underdog loses 1

Down Six Favored gains 1 Underdog loses 0

I don't like the math of this either. If I'm 3 levels up from a guy, I make 4 points for beating him and lose 11 if I lose.

As a not-so-thought-out suggestion, how about a win being worth 2 points plus the number of levels ahead the opponent was. If the opponent was any number of levels below, the win is worth 1 point. Losses are -1 point no matter what. I just had sports in my head where a win is 2 points, tie is 1 and loss is 0.

The above might be ok. But once it starts, you are going to have to play a lot of games to get anyone at the higher levels, to even allow new "fresh blood" to advance quickly. Since PBEM games take so much time, you might be months or a year before anyone even advances one level.

[jon_j_rambo]

Why not set-up PBEM-Ladder w/ the same website as Z-League? It is working well for us.

Call it PBEM-League.

[DragonFlame]

May I suggest the following ranking system:

http://www.daak.de/rang/index.php3?sprache=e&order=rank&art=PBM

(You can read the explanation when you click on "ranking formula"; )

It was worked out after some years of experience with other ranking systems and is working very well since a year now.

Its especially "designed" for email games wich have a time frame from 2weeks to 2months.

The formula is quite simple and can by calculated with Excel. The implementation of the "players experience" is optional and may or may not included

In general this system allows newbies to advance quickly, but after a while climbing higher is getting harder and harder until you reach the top.

Of course you dont need to take the military ranks and implement these Tier names that JerseyJohn introduced.

BTW: I personally like these Tier names.

[disorder]

just have a hard time seeing sean connery as BORN TO KILL. what about

or

and as for the ANGEL OF DEATH, i found this one

but i am trying to find a better one.

regarding the "scale" for each level, i do not claim to be a mathamagician, and i aquiesce to anyone willing to devote time to number crunching. i do agree wholeheartedly with JJ as regards a slow rise in the ranks.

without a quick and immediate rise, all participants will feel they have a chance. and when a person gets to the top, it will be so much more valuable. delayed gratification.

anyway, awaiting any comments on SEAN CONNERY

[Reepicheep]

I'd rather see ranks based on something militarily historical- gives one that period flavor. The proposed names sound way too much like something for an FPS.

For instance, you could use tanks instead:

#1. King Tiger

#2. IS-2

#3. Tiger I

#4. T-34/85

#5. Sherman

#6. M13/39

#7. Opel Blitz

(Or something to that effect.) And appropriate icons would be easy to get.....

[ July 11, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Reepicheep ]

[disorder]

reepicheep-

excellent thoughts! as regarding the icons, they could be easily taken from any game using them. bound to be some out there.

if we went this route,though, why couldnt we use generals. might be harder to get them similar-sized, but we could go from patton (arguably) to any frenchmen on the bottom! or take the nazi route.

or we could enlarge the mod packs now being used for modifying sc icons. a jet icon with 1* up to 5* on it.

anybody else want to comment(agree or disagree)