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Playing Germany defensive?


kurt88
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Just wondering if anyone ever won a game playing the axis building fortress Europe in the west and the east.

Say Germany starts very well,taking Poland,LC,France,Norway,Sweden and Vichy (except North African part) real fast.Their minors join.Yugoslavia falls,Italy takes Greece and Egypt.Then finally Iraq is conquered for Axis.

Russia enters the war and because of a high bid is putting up a red wall.Axis take Odessa and Kiev and then dig in,creating a double line supported by three high rated HQ's supported by 4 air.Finland is also Axis and dug in supported by armies,HQ and 1 air.Mpp flow is slightly in favor of the Axis.

Then German player sets about preparing for an Allied invasion of the west.

Is it possible for Axis to hold?

I'm currently in such a position in a game against Jordy and it's real interesting.It's nov 1942 now and the situation in the east is good.Russia is not getting through,even losing units.Axis is taking moderate damage.Russian HQ's can't come near the frontline because of the German air (Zhukov was already killed).A good rotating system in the frontline armies keeps me from having to reinforce too much.

In the west the Allied med fleet (UK,Free French,Vichy and US) took a real pounding from Axis air and Italian subs losing 4/5 expensive units.)Tobruk is American but they're quite stuck there.

US forces are now invading France and will probably succeed to take Brest but Axis forces are in position to strike back.

UK and Axis air are both Lvl 3 and equal in numbers.

I'm curious to see how things will unfold.

Any comments? (I could send you the save if you want)

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Hey! No fair bragging. tongue.gif It's a very interesting game. I made a mistake going into the Med with my fleet. What level long-range air do you have anyway?

Anyway, I should of went for France right away and left the Med. alone. And by moderate damage in the east, except for the Zhukov HQ, I think its pretty even. We both have a double line set up and it has definitely reverted to trench warfare. Finland has been back and forth and I'm expected it to move back towards leningrad again.

UK has 6 airfleets, level 3 jets with level 4 Long-Range. All the ports and mines in the west have been bombed down to 0 for sometime now and the airfleets have about 3 bars of experience. The problem is I think Germany has something like 40 to 50 airfleets ;) with a similar, if not the same, tech levels.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to lose this game. But we'll see. I think german moral is bottoming out with the length of the war and the constant bombing in the west. Oh, wait, there is no moral in this game. Shoot.

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I've been in a few games like this back in v1.06 days. Assuming the UK carriers are still around what you will normally see is Russia holding/slowly advancing in minor areas (Finland, Sweden, ect..) and the Western allies moderialy advanceing in the west. What ends up happening is Axis kill HQs in the east and UK is killing HQs in the west (I ran out of German HQs in one game then conseaded, russia was running low but they had space to trade hid in). This is all assuming the westen allies get ashore. If they can't or get thrown back then Germany eventually go's on a limited attack in the east and slowly pushs USSR out.

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Jordy,

You may think you'll lose this game,I'm thinking I'll lose the game tongue.gif

Decision will fall in the west,I'm sure.

It's like Iron Ranger says,if you're able to land and build a bridgehead,Axis will be heavily taxed,if not you'll have lost too much to attempt a second try.

I'm anxious to see things develop.

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It is going to be a very interesting next couple of turns. But...

Ik hoop u verliest. Europa moet worden bevrijd en de Duitsers moeten worden gemaakt om voor hun misdaden tegen de wereld te betalen.

Kreeg ik het Nederlandse recht?

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The Axis controls everything on mainland Europe except Turkey, Spain and Portugal (I think). The Swiss may still be free too but I can't remember right now.

In Africa the Axis controls everything East of Tripoli, but not Tripoli itself.

Does this game look similar Curry?

[ October 14, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Jordy ]

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Spain and Turkey are both neutral.I was considering Turkey but I'm glad I didn't.If Jordy would have invaded then with most of my forces in the east...

I also was planning on Spain but then he invaded so that was cancelled as well.

A few minor mistakes Jordy but eventually your Dutch will be straight! smile.gif

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In 1.06 I played a few defensive games like this..

Made sense...hard to defeat if you can 'kill enough of the Allies' to begin with and get up enough Minors...though definitely isn't a winning strategy

Another point why I think that Longe Range Fighter should be downgraded... First of all if the enemy has Air in the region your Air Recon may or may not bring back intel on the precise location of enemy HQs cause they'd get smooshed. Also HQs have no airdefense.. How many famous Generals were killed in WW2 due to bombing? At least allow a person to buy back an HQ at a reduced price

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Mpp flow is slightly in favor of the Axis. Is it possible for Axis to hold?
In the current version of the game, probably yes. One of the great weaknesses of the economics in SC compared to the Third Reich game is that the USSR and USA do not see significant economic growth. 5% IT advances are not historically realistic, and Germany is able to keep up these. The ability of the Allies to turn the tide is very fragile in SC. I tried to highlight this in the Strategy Guide by emphasizing the "critical point" in the game. Once the Axis gains the MPP advantage, it is very difficult for the Allies to recover.

There should be different growth factors for nations in SC2, which should make the game better. If the Allies see robust growth in 1942 and 1943 to turn the economic tide, then the game literally becomes a race for Axis to crush either UK or USSR before the USA fully mobilizes. If they fail to do so, the Allies should eventually win through attrition warfare if nothing else unless the Axis holds on beyond the stalemate conditions.

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I had something similar in a game with Gunnar some months ago. Because of his LC gambit (which was pretty new to me) I took ages taking France.

I didn't have much of a clue how to keep down Russian war readiness either, so before I new it I was at war with them, with not enough of Europe in my hands.

However, I had been experimenting with rockets, and I slowly drove into Russia up almost to the gates of Leningrad, before having to retire back a little due to the lack of supply.

What kept me going was conquering Spain in late 1942 (I think), and having a relatively strong Italian air force. Lack of success in jet research for the Germans did cause problems for a while, but my wonder rockets knocked hell out of the Russians (killed Chuikov with 2 shots!) and saved my bacon.

We had air battles a plenty, with the Luftwaffe and allied air forces (most of whom were in Russia) trading losses.

When it ended in May 1947 Germany and Italy were still in the game, but the Russians were in the vicinity of Berlin. The allies hadn't done an invasion in the west, but had invaded Iraq and moved loads of troops (including US armies) to Russia that way.

I probably didn't use the best strategy, but it was one of the most entertaining games I've had. It also seems to be very rare to get a draw in this game, so for me that game is so far unique.

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I remember that game very well! I did do an invation in the west but it was in the fall of 1946 and I failed to take Paris in time. One or two turns more and the game would have been won. My misstake was not invade a lot earlier. I thought for a long time that I would take Berlin with the Russians heavily supported by UK and US air. My problem was that the German Army was very experienced and supported of 5 or 6 L-5 Rockets. When I changed tactics and started attacking in the west it was to late. Still when the game ended I was just a few turns away from taking both Berlin and Paris. It was one of the most exciting games I played and it ended in a draw.

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Bill101, you said:

------------------------------------

I didn't have much of a clue how to keep down Russian war readiness either, so before I new it I was at war with them, with not enough of Europe in my hands.

------------------------------------

How DO you keep Russian war readiness down? I know that a small garrison (1 or 2 units)is necessary early then a larger garrison (4 or 5 units) is necessary by end of 1940 or so. Is there anything else that can be done?

Thanks

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I tried to highlight this in the Strategy Guide by emphasizing the "critical point" in the game. Once the Axis gains the MPP advantage, it is very difficult for the Allies to recover.
This is very true, expecially if the Axis is allowed to persue the "Cookie Cutter" plan. When this happens the allies have only 2-8 turns around the start of Operation Barberossa to turn the tide.

If the Allies see robust growth in 1942 and 1943 to turn the economic tide, then the game literally becomes a race for Axis to crush either UK or USSR before the USA fully mobilizes.
The growth period for the game is the 'free' troops Russia recives in the Siberian Transfer, but because the Axis side controls when the allies will recive these troops there is no race. Many times the axis will not trigger this event until they have control of everything (many games I've seen this never happen or its delayed till 44/45) else and the game has become a forgone conclusion. If you force this event close to the historical date you will see some seasaw GROUND battles in 42/43 that have a good chance of detmining the winner vs Air battles in the west that seam to control who will win the game.
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Spain and Turkey are both neutral
If spain is neutral then the axis should invade here. If Iraq is the key to allied victory (post elsewhere) then Spain is the key to axis victory. With the plunder from Spain and Portugal plus the extra 72MMPs (plus the land connedtion to NA) the axis should have the advantage and the allies will need to react soon or slowly get ground down.
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I'm afraid I'm still not an expert on how to keep Russian war readiness down, but I'm a bit better at it now (thanks partly to Curry). Some people are experts at it, as I've learnt to my cost!

You're right Gunnar - I'd forgotten that you did invade in the west, a long time after I expected you would.

Sometimes I wish we could re-run a video of our favourite games, or at least have a summary of events to refer to. This is especially relevant when you have 6 games or more on the go at one time, and have trouble remembering what's happened.

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How to keep russian war readiness down:

- After Poland place one unit in one of the two german border cities.

- in October 1940: Place 4 units in and around (max one hex distance) the two german border cities.

You need the 4 units when the minors join, but since you dont know when they do, the 4 units should be placed in October 1940 (Minors start joining November 1940). Only units in and around the 2 german cities count for russian readiness. Units in Romania are irrelevant.

For further hints:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002198;p=1

[ October 15, 2003, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

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After playing a good amount of Axis games I noticed some people have theories about Russian Readiness. It seems Random at times when you start DOWing minors. Rambo really helped me out in a game with him when he noticed my Readiness kept stealing away my Minor Expansion. The whole game balance if France falls well enough relies on your expansionism and preparation to deal with Russia. You need a few turns to operate your units in place to kill all the Russian Frontline Armies. You also can't use purely corps then to take the 4 frontline Russian Cities.

I have noticed that lately Armor is invaluable for a fast Russian kill. I have pushed more than a few people into the Urals by Summer of '42 with 5-6 Axis tanks...

Axis Air is for city busting and some recon. Corps are for deep penetration and protection of your mainline Tanks and Armies in the rear finishing up the job. As in all WW2 sims surrounding and killing off as much of Russia as possible is the key to victory

The Readiness I've noticed changes no differently if you have 8 units on the border with Russia

Though don't overdo it or underdo it. A sneaky way to do it is operate your lowest strength Axis units and Italians over there to begin with ;) that way you get experience and manuever more quickly killing minors.. It doesn't matter if they're corps or armies...

;)

Also beware Yugoslavia...get the air in place to kill it so it doesn't degrade away from your Barbarossa and it does work both was in Hungary/Romania

[ October 17, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

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