Copyright Laws: Anybody know?

[jon_j_rambo]

What would happen if you converted the original Squad Leader exactly into a computer game? Hasbro bought Avalon Hill, but how long to the copyrights last?

[ April 12, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[zappsweden]

Interesting topic. In fact, I am planning on making some games when I find the right ppl.

[Some_God]

Just getting in before topic is locked...

[zappsweden]

Just figured, this discussion should be in the general forum.

[JerseyJohn]

It would probably get a real answer in the GF -- a lot of lawyers and law students who like to look these things up.

I think they changed the laws a few years ago, along with the patent laws, but I'm not sure how that affected games and electronic media.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Rambo ASL and of course Squad Leader is owned by Hasborg.

Keep in mind these are the same people that made an attempt to patent the hex center dot (board gamers will understand that).

They are not nice people to get angry.

As for the copywrite duration, assume it will be around for a long enough time, that odds are entertainment will have long since evolved past the point anyone might care for a board game turned computer game.

As it goes, I am trying to re invent the original Squad Leader.

As I see it, if I do actually do it, I will offer it to Hasborg. And they either buy it, I I just play the protype game when and where I feel like.

But it would be nice if my concept was to see the light of day.

As far as PC Squad Leader though, two many computer wargames already out there that already almost do the exact same thing to make it worth the effort.

And besides, anyone wishing to play SL/ASL on a computer, likely won't mind using VASL.

[jon_j_rambo]

Les --- I'm talking about making a computer version of "Exactly Squad Leader". Not Steel Panthers, not CM, not this, not that.....and sure not that stupid VSQL pop-up software. I could use ICQ easier than that crap.

[jon_j_rambo]

Another thing (I guess it's a question to Hasbro), if they aren't going to produce the game anymore, if they aren't going to make it a computer game (not that lame crap of a few years ago), then why not let other computerize it? SL is 27 years old from the original release.

If somebody put SL on computer version, it would be EASY MONEY, EASY TO PROGRAM!

Good things never go out of date.

[willebra]

Copyright is in force until 70 years (95 years in the US, if I remember correctly - this was amended a few years ago) have passed after the year of decease of the creator.

Basicly, as was already noted, this isn't a viable way to look at in projects involving "modern" creations.

However, copyright protects against copying, and "copying" is meant very literally: copy-pasting source code infringes to the right of the copyright holder (very general comment). Using the same ideas and making an another implementation of them does not.

So implementing the idea of a board game as a computer game does not infringe to the copyright of the creator of the board game. (If you make an exact copy of the rules, this would of course be an infringement; or if you make other exact copies , e.g. figures etc. these could be infringing. The ideas are not protected by copyright, so e.g. the same rules can be written differently.)

Besides copyright, one should consider the impact of possible patents and/or trademarks. A board game, or individual parts of it, must be quite difficult to patent (but everything is possible, at least in the US).

As a practical note, if you are going to make a computer implementation of an existing board game following the original ideas very closely, you should expect that the creator of the original idea reacts somehow. Solutions:

1) work together with them or

2) prepare for their reaction.

When agreeing in advance: it is somewhat usual that companies concerned about their copyright protection use clauses in non-disclosure agreements that effectively extend the protection of their copyright in relation to the other party. So if you're going to sign an NDA before negotiations, it might be that your position to negotiate weakens due to clauses contained in the NDA (you cannot anymore use certain ideas without their consent). This depends on the wording of the NDA.

Don't take this as legal advice to you (jon j rambo), as this message isn't. These are general comments relating to copyright. Also, my perspective is European (Finnish).

[Friendly Fire]

yup, in the USA copyright was extended in 2002 to last until life of the creator plus 70 years, mostly because Disney lawyers received instructions (and budget) to keep Micky Mouse under protection at any cost...

what a joke!

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Rambo, there are two basic flaws with your ambition.

One is Hasborg. They hate games that don't move thousands of copies annually.

Second is the ASL community.

If Squad Leader could be computerised correctly, there is a strong chance the SLer community, which is essentially the ASLer community, would want it to look like ASL, not SL.

Me, I would not mind a completely faithful computer version of SL (or ASL) done with a competent AI and a decent Online capacity.

As it goes, I am awaiting to see if Matrix Games can manage to make a completely faithful computer version of World in Flames.

But there are no shortage of people out there, that think a decent AI is required, and a decent supply of people that think it is unlikely you can produce a decent AI in the first place.

Not to mention, there are no shortage of persons out there, that think a game using such micromanagment intensive turns, would likely be a nightmare for an online experience.

As you say "EASY TO PROGRAM!", well lets just say, I will let you do it if it is so, and sign me out for a copy when you are finished hehe.

I came close to picking up Combat Mission II the other day, because I wanted a game dang it, and it was the first item I found available. And at 24 bucks, seemed a nice pocket friendly notion.

Well I found Highway to the Reich on sale for 39 bucks, and Combat Mission never had a chance hehe

Other than CM and Steel Panthers though, there really isn't much out there for the ASLer to give a hoot over. Close Combat does a nice job, but if it isn't using turns, then it really has wandered a bit off the chartt for actual depiction of ASL.

There really is no substitute for ASL. You either are playing ASL, or you ain't.

SL is nice, in that it gives a more stream lined, less top heavy rules manual option.

But wargamers being wargamers, if they want to play SL, it is often a short time before they are not satisfied and start lusting after ASL.

That said, making a game intentionally SL in the first place might not appeal to the whole of the SL/ASL crowd.

And the only thing that separates SL from ASL is rules complexity. And that won't matter much to a decent computer program that will remember most of the niggling minutae in the letter of the law enshrined in the manual.

But getting back to Hasborg, hmmm they are called that for a reason eh hehe. Also known as MiniMicrosoft too.

They absorb or buy up competition for a reason. They don't want competition.

And if your game won't sell oddles of copies, they won't support it.

Currently MMP makes ASL. And only because they asked to do all the work, and apparently without much support from Hasborg.

But Hasborg still owns it.

And they beat up anyone trying to fiddle with their legal rights.

Just ask the owner of Critical Hit what he thinks of locking horns with Hasborg.

[zappsweden]

Les de Sarge. The game IS easy to program. I am a programmer and agree with Rambo. The game design and balancing is already made. The rules are easy to program, believe me.

I have seen too many examples on forums throughout the Internet where, if someone say something can be done, nay-sayers show up and say "it is impossible"

For instance, board games already have defined rules and are balanced (hopefully) so game design is pretty fast.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Friendly Fire:

yup, in the USA copyright was extended in 2002 to last until life of the creator plus 70 years, mostly because Disney lawyers received instructions (and budget) to keep Micky Mouse under protection at any cost...

what a joke!

In post-modern Trans America, ICONS are more important, and considered much more valuable, than... rodents, prey animals or people.

Disney says so.

Andy Warhol sealed the deal.

Hasbro is a junior league nobody when it comes to batting around in the Big Leagues.

You guys think it's hard to get some old board game made for computer? LOL!

Try this.

Try making a board game based on Major League Baseball.

Just try it.

The Major League Baseball Player's Union, without doubt the most selfish avaracious bunch of goofball Clowns who ever swaggered to stumble into PT Barnum Center Ring,

Wants... not a reasonable fee, oh no,

They want... an arm and a leg.

Literally.

Yours.

And your child's.

And your doting old grandmother's.

And your heart and soul thrown in while yer at it. :eek:

LOL!

ICONS are... precious, ... like Honor and common everyday dignity used to be.

[jon_j_rambo]

Les --- Too bad Gary Grigsby can't make a TCP/IP game, I don't understand that?

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

My statement still stands, you make it I will buy it

Me, I know so little about programing as to make it hard to make the infinitesimal nick on the scale hehe.

I only know one thing, of all the wargames out there, nothing compares with the fanatical devotion of an ASL fan hehe.

[jon_j_rambo]

Good point, are copyrights World Wide? I have no idea.

There's a business opportunity to take existing board games & convert them into computer games. The best thing, all your time would be spent on programming, since the game is already defined. Literally, do it exactly like the board game plays.

If you made 10+ games, you could make some money. Do it all by your damn self. I was hoping Battlefront would create a bunch of turned based hex strategy games for online.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Boardgames do not convert well to computer games. If you want the computer game to act exactly like the boardgame, then there are already computer aids out there for boardgames that do exactly that. As one of the main two is free and the second one costs $40 (which cause many people not to purchase it), no company is going waste the resources to make a computer game that does everything exactly like a boardgame.

Which means the converted game has to have new features that take advantage of what a computer has to offer... which are design issues, which means you might as well design a new game from scratch.

When computers were young, one of the games that got converted to a PC whas Third Reich. And it was almost exactly that, a boardgame converted to a computer. It got bad press from day one... especially the AI. Everyone remembers that and uses it as an example of why you don't convert.

That is why things are the way they are.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

I remember PC Third Reich, and I remember the flak it got.

I remember PC Squad Leader, and I remember (unfortunately) what happens when a game merely wears the name of the game and not the original design.

Currently Matrix Games is attempting to make PC World in Flames. Maybe it will be a mistake, and maybe not.

I have not actually sat down and learned VASL yet, as I have not felt enough need for it yet (I would rather play ASL face to face still).

Aide de Camp at 40 some bucks is not an easy purchase, but it would allow me to play my game The Longest Day against people online (which would be worth 40 bucks in my opinion).

So the matter is sorta like the debate over do we need 3d cutesy grapgics to make our wargames sexy enough to infuse new blood into the hobby or not.

Me I think games like Highway to the Reich which uses 2d but has better AI routines and uses a credible real time setting has more to offer.

Can board games be made into computer games. Again it depends on what has already been done.

I have The Operational Art of War Century of Warfare edition. Which means almost every board game I have ever bought, can be emulated with this highly capable piece of software. Thus you will find, that most wargames, aside from the name on the box, have already been efficiently made into computer wargames already.

Grand Strategy has not been done yet to anyone's complete satisfaction globally, so that one area is not yet accomplished. Here's hoping cWiF works.

If not, it's time to get back into bufgging Hubert to expand his design into going global.

Actual computer SL would be nice. But until someone actually does it, there will be those of us that insist those that say it's easy, to invest in putting their money where their mouth is.

It isn't within my skill level, and I am stating that clearly right here.

So those that say it will be easy, prove it

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay Gaming Guys,

1) I believe Computer-SL would sell. There's no comparison with 3R. I didn't like 3R in the first place to make a proper move it could take an hour long, dividing combat loss pieces (searching the chit bag for naval & air units, etc.)

2) World in Flames is in production, but no TCP/IP from the advertisement. When I get time, I'll goto their website & voice my opinion (bitch). I don't understand why 90% of their games are like that. I remember when SC had the TCP/IP patch, Wow, what a difference.

3) I know newbies aren't attracted to the old games, but you never know, classics never die. I see it as opportunity.

4) I'm no lawyer, but I'd assume it's probably illegal to take SL & copy it exactly into computer version.

5) I do know, I want to play more turn based, hex games online. It's about strategy & decisions. Probably a pipedream, but it pisses me off with all these fancy computers there aren't more.

Rambo

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

"I know newbies aren't attracted to the old games, but you never know, classics never die. I see it as opportunity"

I concur, a classic is a classic for a reason. Games don't become classics if they never had anything to begin with.

And we were all newbies once, and all us "once upon a time newbies" are the ones that made those classics classic after all.

So it is not that a person is young or old, new or grognard that makes a game sell. It's if the game actually has something under the hood that makes it sell.

Strategic Command I think is headed for the classic category in my opinion.

It has that one needed element well in hand. Anyone can learn it, anyone can master it, and you can always enjoy playing it.

How many games in the last couple of years have you bought that "seemed cool" until you had played it a month and somehow managed to get tired of it or it had not lived up entirely to your expectations.

[SeaMonkey]

"How many games in the last couple of years have you bought that "seemed cool" until you had played it a month and somehow managed to get tired of it or it had not lived up entirely to your expectations."

Well Sarge we'll see if HttR passes the test, you will let us know?

[Shaka of Carthage]

1) I believe Computer-SL would sell. There's no comparison with 3R. I didn't like 3R in the first place to make a proper move it could take an hour long, dividing combat loss pieces (searching the chit bag for naval & air units, etc.)

2) World in Flames is in production, but no TCP/IP from the advertisement. When I get time, I'll goto their website & voice my opinion (bitch). I don't understand why 90% of their games are like that. I remember when SC had the TCP/IP patch, Wow, what a difference.

Those two statements just illustrate what I was saying about not being able to convert a boardgame exactly to a computer. One of the biggest problems CWiF has to address, is how to handle the responses the defender has to make when the attacker does something.

4) I'm no lawyer, but I'd assume it's probably illegal to take SL & copy it exactly into computer version.

This dilemma has been fought over for years by the people who are producing computer aids for boardgames. What it comes down to is this... you cannot reproduce the map/counters (by scanning, xerox, etc) without the gaming companies permission. However, you can recreate the map/counters. You can recreate the map, even to the point where you have the same copyright statement on your map. With todays graphic programs, there are beautifil maps and counters for just about every boardgame out there, that are much better looking than the originals.

Technically, thats all you are allowed to do. Where the old time gaming companies will come after you is in the rules. The theory being that unless you have purchased the game, you don't have the rules, therefore you cannot play the game.

The more modern looking companies, and especially the newer designers (some of whom are self-publishing or doing Desk Top Publishing), have started using a concept called "Living Rules". In effect, errata and changes are incorporated into the rules, and a new version is published on a website, for anyone to download.

"Living Rules" along with something called P500, are how the modern day boargaming publishers are trying to survive in todays world.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

It already passed the test Sea Monkey hehe, I bought it.

Les the Sarge ain't got time or money for garbage.

I might have bought 2 bad wargames in 25 years. Being picky ensures I don't buy garbage much.

But in the case of HTTR, I was sold after seeing its early incarnation Red Devils via the demo.

I was only unable to act on my desire to own it.

But last week, both me the game and my money all found themselves in the same spot for once hehe.

[jon_j_rambo]

Shake of Cart --- Nice point, you're talking about the Defense fire phase. The defender needs to "instantly interrupt" offensive player's move in order to do specific defensive fire against moving units.

If I remember right, SL turns go like:

1) Rally

2) Prep Fire

3) Movement

4) Defensive Fire

5) Advancing Fire Phase

6) Advance Movement Phase

7) Close Combat

During this action, the defender has "stuff to do" which is time sensitive. I don't think it would be that tough to program because the logic is deterministic, state machine stuff.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

And that is just for infantry Rambo.

Moving vehicles, now that gets intensive in a big way.

It enters a hex, then it stops, then it starts, then it pivots once, then stops, then pivots again, then starts. Then moves three hexes and engages in a gun duel.

I would actually like to see how a computer AI would deal with me doing all that.